Panel change - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Magnettica · 01-20-2008, 01:51 PM

Here are some pictures from a panel change I did the other day. The company I work for is doing some remodeling on the 2nd floor. And new 2nd floor sub-panel was added for all the new wiring (new lighting, receptacles, furnace). A new 200 amp service was planned but the budget didn't allow for it so we did a panel change, a Square D, QO, 150 amp main breaker, 30 circuit. It is already full!

the original panel, it was literally hanging from the conduit nipple.

an hour later

lags and shields were used to attach the 2x4's to the old cinder block foundation, and the closed-nipple was added for the depth I needed to mount the 3/4" plywood panel board.

the panel board is installed, my holesaw was too dull to do the job so I did what I had to do using spade bits and a sawzall.

panel is installed, locknuts are tightened

cables are put back into the panel. The black box to the left was the original 8-circuit Federal twist fuse panel that became a splice point when the service was last upgraded. This splice point was relocated and rewired to new junction boxes inside the floor joist cavity above.

the finished product without the cover.

the grounding and bonding was also updated. New #6 copper to the waterpipe main, jumped from hot and cold, and two new fancy exterior ground rods. New 1/0 copper feeders too.

wrenchman · 01-20-2008, 01:55 PM

Nice looking work.

mdshunk · 01-20-2008, 01:55 PM

Good job. I'd hire you any day. That demonstrates just about the best you can do with the situation there.

Does someone at your shop prefabricate those painted back boards? I have toyed with the idea of cutting some, maybe router an ogee on the edge, and pre-paint them. That's how the old-school electricians did things. Mostly, I jsut put up a regular piece of plywood, or maybe just bolt the panel on the wall with plastic spacers on the screws. Curious to know how that's handled in your shop.

The picture you failed to show was how the floor looks under the panel right after a service change. I'm normally standing a foot deep in various bits of wire and other leavings. I find it quicker to sweep up when I'm done than to put each piece of scrap in a trash box as I go. Much quicker.

220/221 · 01-20-2008, 02:00 PM

Nice

I always like doing that kind of work. I makes me feel like I've accomplished something when I can clean up a mess. I also like when it's all torn apart and the customer says "how do you know where everything goes"

Quote:

I find it quicker to sweep up when I'm done than to put each piece of scrap in a trash box as I go.

I ALWAYS aim for the trash can/box. Actually I like TWO boxes. One for keeper stuff like locknuts/connectors etc that may come back into play and the other for trash.

Magnettica · 01-20-2008, 02:07 PM

In our shop, we are told to buy the boards at the supply house. They are 17 bucks each and in my opinion a waste of money. I would prefer we buy a full sheet of 3/4" plywood and have the helpers cut them and paint them during downtime. Over the course of a year the savings add up. I like the idea of routered edges. Adds a nice touch of workmanship and demonstrates professionalism.

This panel change like all the rest means a ton of tools and crap all over the floor. One way to combat the mess of debris left on the floor is to either A) use the box the panel came in for the garbage, or B) use brown paper bags from the grocery store. I always get the brown bags and have at least 30 of them in my truck. This is also a good idea for changing out receptacles or wherever a small mess has the potential of becoming larger. the brown bags = makes life easier, plus they are free for shopping at A&P.

mahlere · 01-20-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

Does someone at your shop prefabricate those painted back boards? I have toyed with the idea of cutting some, maybe router an ogee on the edge, and pre-paint them.

probably not...a few local supply houses sell them ready to go...one of the largest in the area is Cooper Electric Supply...probably came from there. Especially because they are the local Sq D distributor

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

The picture you failed to show was how the floor looks under the panel right after a service change. I'm normally standing a foot deep in various bits of wire and other leavings. I find it quicker to sweep up when I'm done than to put each piece of scrap in a trash box as I go. Much quicker.

When I was doing resi panel changes, we always used QO...QO boxes can be opened on one end, remove the panel, and the box stands up right below your work area as a nice garbage box...as you cut and strip wire, let it fall right into the box...doesn't work well with Sieman's boxes, not sure about GE...

mdshunk · 01-20-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 220/221

I also like when it's all torn apart and the customer says "how do you know where everything goes"

That's a classic. If the customer seems good-natured, my response sometimes is, "I was hoping you would remember".

I don't trust old panel schedules anyhow. I just I.D. the 240 stuff, I.D. any conductors that were on smaller breakers than normal (ie. #12 on a 15 amp breaker), then just land everything. I run around at the end turning breakers off and go see what it goes to, then label the panel.

Patrick · 01-20-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnettica

In our shop, we are told to buy the boards at the supply house. They are 17 bucks each and in my opinion a waste of money. I would prefer we buy a full sheet of 3/4" plywood and have the helpers cut them and paint them during downtime. Over the course of a year the savings add up. I like the idea of routered edges. Adds a nice touch of workmanship and demonstrates professionalism.

This sounds like a niche market I could get into??? In my down time, producing these in bulk, and selling them for $13 ea beating out the supply houses??

dkillianjr · 01-20-2008, 02:10 PM

I'm no electritian, but I know sharp looking work when I see it, looks nice

I like the black plywood too.

Dave

A.W.Davis · 01-20-2008, 02:21 PM

Looks great...I love seeing work where people actually care about how things look!

One question though doesnt the 30"x30"x36" code apply to this panel. Or is it because it's a pre existing location thats it's okay where its at?

mahlere · 01-20-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.W.Davis

Looks great...I love seeing work where people actually care about how things look!

One question though doesnt the 30"x30"x36" code apply to this panel. Or is it because it's a pre existing location thats it's okay where its at?

30x30x36 rule?

mdshunk · 01-20-2008, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.W.Davis

Looks great...I love seeing work where people actually care about how things look!

One question though doesnt the 30"x30"x36" code apply to this panel. Or is it because it's a pre existing location thats it's okay where its at?

He does have 30x36 there. What he doesn't have is clear headroom to the ceiling, because the ductwork is in the way. That's a technical violation, but one you're often able to get a pass on for existing work. You need 6-1/2 feet from the floor to the ceiling too, but many basements are only 6 feet. I double check with the inspector for each and every one of these, but I always get a "it's fine" response.

Magnettica · 01-20-2008, 02:49 PM

Boy, mahlere, it's as if you've done a few of these in your day.

Yes, everything is bought and supplied by Cooper Electric, Jersey City.

They screwed up, though. well, so did I geuss you could say. If you look closely at one of the pictures you'll notice that the first picture of the new panel is a MLO (main lug only). They gave me the wrong panel and I failed to check for it. Hell, I even installed it before realizing the error!

A.W.Davis · 01-20-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahlere

30x30x36 rule?

Sorry I should have been more specific.

The subpanel should have 30" of clearance from the sides of the panel and 36" of clearance away from the front of the panel....I forget the NEC code number.

I am not trying to call magnettica out.....he obviously does sound work and cares about what he does. I am just curious for my sake is all, nothing more.

A.W.Davis · 01-20-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

He does have 30x36 there. What he doesn't have is clear headroom to the ceiling, because the ductwork is in the way. That's a technical violation, but one you're often able to get a pass on for existing work. You need 6-1/2 feet from the floor to the ceiling too, but many basements are only 6 feet. I double check with the inspector for each and every one of these, but I always get a "it's fine" response.

Ohh okay.

I was just curious more or less. Nothing more.

Great work Magnettica

Magnettica · 01-20-2008, 04:51 PM

Thanks for the compliments guys.

I really do appreciate them.

Speedy Petey · 01-20-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.W.Davis

Sorry I should have been more specific.

The subpanel should have 30" of clearance from the sides of the panel and 36" of clearance away from the front of the panel

You've got it wrong. It is 30" wide TOTAL. The panel can anywhere in that 30" space.
There is an exception to the 6'6" height rule for existing jobs. See 110.26(E) exc.

PS - I like the black board as well. I do buy a sheet of AC and cut it up ahead of time. I never considered painting it though. I may just do that.
Blue would be my preference.

A.W.Davis · 01-20-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

You've got it wrong. It is 30" wide TOTAL. The panel can anywhere in that 30" space.
There is an exception to the 6'6" height rule for existing jobs. See 110.26(E) exc.

Okay gotcha.....I misinterpreted the code requirements then. I was always under the impression that you need 30" of clear space on both sides of the panel.

Speedy Petey · 01-20-2008, 06:31 PM

That is a common misconception. Just like the 6/12 rule for receptacles.

JamesNLA · 01-20-2008, 06:43 PM

nice work!!
Wondering if you had to terminate any ententions up above somewhere or a few wirenuts in the panel?