Another Residential Service Change/upgrade.

220/221

The panels are located outside for one reason. Simplicity.

In different climates I can see the problems that may occur but here all we have is blistering heat.





And like I said, there is no problem with heat....ever.I have taken apart literally hundreds of services like this over the years and have not seen a single issue cause by heat at the point of entrance. I often have to relocate the entrance point in order to get more wire into the new panel and when I do that, I cut open the sheath to strip it back. Never seen compromised insulation at that point. Maybe some scientist somewhere in a lab says there is heat but if there was, I would have seen it.


The heat affects the exposed wiring in the panel, starting from the breaker and moving outward. I often have to add a layer of tape to repair the old cloth style insulation on the section that has been exposed. There are also often problems with the older wiring at the connectors. There are never problems where the sheathed cables enter the panel.



The only damage I have seen in attics, which DO reach 150 degrees here, is from staples on the old cloth style sheathing from the 1960's. The sheath is often frayed. That is why I'm not a huge fan of stapling. I have never seen any isues with NM in attics strictly from the heat.




Again in a wet climate it may be different. Do you run everything on the interior of the the block in your area?








Of course it's dangerous. That's why it was so funny to me. Once it was there and didn't blow up and I wasn't close to it, I figured it was safe enough for me. After all, it's only a big extension cord.....with very little over current protection

Being a childrens swingset really has no bearing though unless they were outside playing on it. The POCO inspector shook his head and removed it from the swingset when he got there, and I had to chase the dog "Sparky" away from it a couple times.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not trying to be arguementative here, just sharing my personal experience.

Magnettica

We're all here for the discussion so we can maybe learn something we may or may not have already known. It is interesting nonetheless. I think here in the Northeast everything is more regulated (just look at the taxes we pay) so it no wonder to me that whats right here may be done a different way somewhere else and still bedonecorrectly.

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kbsparky

In some areas of the NorthEast, with 12 foot drifts of snow against the side of your house, an outside panel would not be always accessible.

Just goes to show there is good reason for regional differences in work design.

Speedy Petey

About 95% of the time, YES.
We are rarely on slabs, and typically have attics, so barring a slab house with cathedral ceilings pretty much ANY indoor panel is accessible. And if it's not there's always patching compound.

I would say an outside panel has just as much accessibility. That is unless you want to pipe around the outside of the house to get anywhere.

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Magnettica

LOL!

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thom

By accessible I meant, can you get to it without digging through piles of crap, moving shelves, etc.

Speedy Petey

....Or garbage cans and that unregistered '83 Dodge parked right under the panel?


We can keep at this all day.
The point I was trying to make was I'd rather snake up or down to a flush indoor panel ANY day as opposed to getting into the back of an exterior panel on a block wall.
Better yet just drop into a surface mount panel in an open basement.

I just see NO reason for the whole panel outside. A main disconnect I have heard logical reasons for, but not the whole panel.

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Dustball

Not to mention an outdoor panel makes it easy for someone with unsavory intentions to do some harm.

220/221

It is easier/cheaper. 200 amp 40 space all in one panel = 120 bucks retail.






$2 padlock



We just pipe up to the attic.....if there is one. They do build houses here with NO accesibility here, on slab with flat roofs. We have to pipe, cut and patch the crap out of those.

JohnJ0906

One of the interesting things about these forums is seeing the regional differences. Not necessarily right vs wrong, but just different.

That said, I'll go down and set the panel in the warm, dry basement...
All this week has been rain or snow.

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John from Baltimore
"One Day at a Time"
All replies based on the 2008 NEC

Speedy Petey

Are you trying to tell me that is why you put panels outside? It's easier/cheaper?????
Sorry, I'm gonna have to wave the old BS flag on this one.

How about; you have no other choice?
We do have a choice and NO ONE does it.

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Mark Twenhafel

New guy here, living in Tucson, AZ.

That's just the way they do it here--probably started long ago 'cause it seemed the natural thing to do--no reason not to. Also, most houses here don't have basements. And, we have flooding here during the summer monsoon season--good reason to keep it out of the basement, if you have one. Probably 95% of homes here (99% of new construction) don't have basements. In my part of town, there is a 12-foot layer of caleche--a naturally-formed, cementitious rock formation. It's basically a natural concrete formed of limestone and large rocks. Back in the day, you just left it alone.

Lots of water heaters are outside here, too. There are enclosures built expressly for the purpose. My washer and dryer are on the back porch--that's very common in older parts of town. I'll have to take some pics....but left the phone (w/ camera) on the truck Friday.

HTH.

220/221

You seem to be a very opinionated individual. Why is it hard to understand that one piece of equipment is easier cheaper to install that two or three?

Maybe you could explain why I would try and bull**** you? It makes no sense to me.





That doesn't make sense. Of course we have choices. I could install a meter/disco outside and run feeders to an interior panel but why would I?

I HAVE installed additional panels inside a very large house (over 10k sq ft)but in a "normal" house it makes more sense to put them outside and eliminate the feeders.

Mark Twenhafel

Seems obvious now that someone mentions it, but does the code require a connector fitting into all boxes, including the panel board? Actually, now that I think of it, in a recent job we used romex connectors at the top of the flush-mounted panelboard where the homeruns entered the top of the panelboard in the stud space. But,I also remember a recent job where the all-in-one was outside but we just took the homeruns and feeders through a KO in the back of the panelboard through a bushing, then up into the truss space, just like the original poster did in this application. Are saying this wasn't code?

Thanks,
New-guy Mark

Speedy Petey

Ummmmm. OK.
You just figuring that out?





Re-read what I wrote. I questioned the reason you do it, not whether it is easier/cheaper.



Listen, I'm not trying to get in a big fight over this. I actually am just voicing my opinions over this, which I have already stated.

I'll just say defending the logic of putting a panel outside is akin to defending Chicago's silly "all conduit" rule.

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220/221

OK...dumb it down for me because I just don't understand.

What do you think the reason is....or what would possible reasons be.

Speedy Petey

Forget it. It's not worth it.
Like we said, it's only an opinion.

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jrclen

So an outside disconnect is required? Is that a State/local code or a POCO requirement? Just wondering and learning.

curranelectric

I don't know what the local codes are in other area but in Southern Calif. The meter/disconnect must be outside so that Edison can read the meter. Edison and the city will OK where the meter is to be installed or replaced. Most all the meter changes I have done are meter/combo. So I replace it with a larger meter/combo. A lot of the new home that are being built out here use that to. I did a custom home and I put a 400 amp meter/main on the outside wall of the garage and put a 200 amp sub in the house and a workshop. Trust me I would like to work in a basement to do a panel upgrade, but out here we have no basements and if it is already setup for a meter/combo why change it. That is my opinion.

220/221

An outdoor disco is required here. I don't know if it is local or POCO or both. I would assume both.

The firefighters can shut everything off before they go into a fire and the POCO can remove/replace the meter without going inside to turn off the load.