Another residential service change/upgrade. - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

220/221 · 12-06-2007, 04:03 PM

Original panel. Upgraded once in the 60's. Seperate meter can, upper left.

Remove wiring/cans. LOTS of added on crap over the years.(((((EDIT: The 2 yellow jacketed wires on the left are another example of how I violate code at my discretion. The original conductors were long enough to reach the new panel but the sheathing had been stripped off in order to squeeze it into 1/2" EMT. I slipped some new sheathing over them and called it good.)))))

This panel is under an eave and I was able to pull the bird boards, drill some lumber and get ALL the wiring down the block wall. It was PAIN but saved a thousand splices,a JB above the panel., and a lot of time. Time is of the essence when the house is occcupied.

New all in one panel up. (All in one required by both POCO's here)

Wiring made up and a green tag from POCO

curranelectric · 12-06-2007, 04:23 PM

Nice job

...How long was the power down for?...Did you connect the main lines up yourself or did you have to wait for POCO to come over to do it?

mahlere · 12-06-2007, 04:40 PM

what kind of connector did you use in the back of the panel?

JohnJ0906 · 12-06-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahlere

what kind of connector did you use in the back of the panel?

I was wondering that myself.

220/221 · 12-06-2007, 05:27 PM

POCo won't let us touch their stuff. This was a tough one and didn't get energized till about 5PM.

Ususally POCO disconnects and ties off the drop somewhere safe. This time the guy just dropped it

I used a 2.5" black plastic snap in bushing in the back. It only LOOKS like a raw edge hole

JohnJ0906 · 12-06-2007, 05:29 PM

Please tell us that drop isn't hot.

220/221 · 12-06-2007, 05:40 PM

It's hot. That's the beauty of it

. POCO is generally much more prudent. It was a LONG drop and the guy didn't really plan ahead. He was up there holding it and realized "crap....I should have thought this thru" and just dropped it on to our tools/supplies

I used to lay them on the ground all the time in the olden days but never across a metal swing set in the wet grass

mahlere · 12-06-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 220/221

I used a 2.5" black plastic snap in bushing in the back. It only LOOKS like a raw edge hole

now...show where that bushing is listed for this purpose and show where the code allows this installation

curranelectric · 12-06-2007, 06:26 PM

Boy..

..what were they thinking...In socal when we change out a service we disconnect and connect ourself. Then the city comes out and checks off the permit. Then they call Edison out and if they like your connection they will leave it... The only time we have to wait for Edison is when we move a service to a different location and the drop is to short.

Dustball · 12-06-2007, 06:32 PM

What happens with the exposed hole in the block to the right of the new panel?

Tiger · 12-06-2007, 06:45 PM

Looks like you aren't concerned about derating either?

Dave

220/221 · 12-06-2007, 08:08 PM

Quote:

What happens with the exposed hole in the block to the right of the new panel?

I will mortar patch it. If the homeowner wants to hire a mason to do a proper repait, he can. He won't though. I generally do my best to cover existing holes but I had to move the riser to the left to clear some existing palm trees.

Quote:

now...show where that bushing is listed for this purpose and show where the code allows this installation

Listed schmisted. It has worked fine for 35 years and it still works fine. BETTER than any connectors because the conductors are not stressed.

Quote:

Looks like you aren't concerned about derating either

See above. If your romex is getting hot you have serious issues. Hell, that wasn't even much of a bundle. I only used 22 spaces.

I have taken apart a LOT of things in my years and have NEVER seen bundling to be a real life issue. The insulation tends to get cooked at the terminations but once you strip back some sheath it's always pristine. If entering a panel in this fashion caused any problems I would have seen it by now.

Now THIS is a bundle:

Speedy Petey · 12-06-2007, 08:26 PM

Man I feel sorry for you guys out West with those stupid ass outside panels.

At least you typically have decent weather to do them in.

Give me a dry basement ANY day.

220/221 · 12-06-2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

At least you typically have decent weather to do them in.

Uhhhh....have you BEEN to AZ in the summer?

It is beyond brutal here. We have to carry big umbrellas on our trucks. We can't set tools in the sun. Batteries will not cool off enough to recharge. But it's a dry heat

The WINTERS are perfect though. 70 something here today

wireless · 12-06-2007, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curranelectric

Boy..

..what were they thinking...In socal when we change out a service we disconnect and connect ourself. Then the city comes out and checks off the permit. Then they call Edison out and if they like your connection they will leave it... The only time we have to wait for Edison is when we move a service to a different location and the drop is to short.

Then you just string some jumper wires!

Magnettica · 12-07-2007, 09:45 AM

First, I can't believe all of the branch circuits go into one huge opening in the panel.

Second, I can't believe that romex is fished through concrete masonary units like that.

Third, whoever it was from the power company who left the service drop like that on a childrens swingset -- CHILDRENS SWINGSET!!!! -- should be fired on the spot. That is beyond unacceptable.

220/221 · 12-07-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

First, I can't believe all of the branch circuits go into one huge opening in the panel.

That's how it's been done here since I've been doing it circa 1972??

What do you think the real life issues would be. I have heard that code requires connectors but IMHO connectors do mre damage than goo by clamping down on the wire. I have heard that bundling debate but in reality it's a non issue. I have never EVER seen heat issues where the cables enter the panels and I have seen a LOT.

Quote:

Second, I can't believe that romex is fished through concrete masonary units like that.

?Que? Isn't NM routinely fished down block walls? What could happen to it in there? It's fire proof and protected by concrete bolck.

Quote:

Third, whoever it was from the power company who left the service drop like that on a childrens swingset -- CHILDRENS SWINGSET!!!! -- should be fired on the spot. That is beyond unacceptable.

Fired on the spot might be a little extreme. We obviously didn't let the kids play out there that day. It WAS a bit....unusual. That's why I took the pic. Kind of a WTF? moment.

Magnettica · 12-07-2007, 04:04 PM

You say that this is in Arizona. So to me derating conductors becomes an even bigger issue because of the heat. If all those homeruns are 20 amp with TW type insulation, and guessing that there are 10 homeruns there (all CCC's), the ampacity of those conductors are 50% less of that listed in Table 310.16. And that's not even considering the ambient temperature of the attic in mid-July!

My concern with the NM fished-through a concrete wall is the moisture contained in the wall.

If you don't think having a live 120/240V utility line lying across a childrens swingset isn't dangerous than I dont know what to tell you.

dkillianjr · 12-07-2007, 04:44 PM

I'm no electritian, and this may be a stupid question, but what is the reasoning for the panel to be located outside? Around here they are all inside I have never seen one outside.

Dave

thom · 12-07-2007, 05:54 PM

Magnetta: "I'm concerned with the moisture..." He's in Arizona. Moisture? That wall is and will remain dryer than a popcorn fart.

That's not so different than the way we do new services (in Albuquerque). Instead of a bushing I use a pvc mip adapter. This gives a nice soft bend. We staple the nm cable to a block inside the wall just above the entry into the panel. We're ok as long as the staple is within 6" of the cables entry into the panel.

Some of you dislike outdoor combination panels. Some of us dislike indoor panels. The outdoor panel is always accessible. Can you say that about indoor panels?