400 Amp Service GEC

 
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Old 06-23-2008, 05:46 PM   #1
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400 Amp Service GEC


Saw this on a job today. All I will say is that this was done by an electrician who wasn't non-union.









I think we can come to agree that just because you are a union electrician, you are not better, or smarter, than an electrician who isn't a member.

And that can go the other way as well.

That's all.
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Old 06-23-2008, 06:25 PM   #2
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Yeah man but when I turn the switch the lights come on LOL

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Old 06-23-2008, 07:35 PM   #3
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Ok, the work looks like crap but it appears you are inferring more than that.


first, just because it says 400 amp max on whatever you show in the first pic doesn't mean it ia a 400 amp service, so is it a 400 amp service?

next, since those conductors don't look like 500mcm (cu) (or 700 mcm al), I would suspect it is not in fact a 400 amp service. So, is the wire undersized or is it not a 400 amp service? (the tape is a nice touch on the service drop feeders though) and yes, it does not look like the proper cable type at all but hard to tell for sure.

as to the water pipe bond. Need to know what size and material the service feeder is before condeming it as well as is the water service a grounding electrode per code requirements. Most water supplies I run across anymore a plastic so that removes them as a electrrode and are merely bonded as required. what size is the water pipe bond conductor?

and the last pic; looks like crap but the pipes are in the wrong place, not neccessarily the panel. It could be simply lack of coordination or it could be a plumber that has no idea what he did is wrong or it could be the electricians fault. Pipes look new so panel could have been there first.

so, before condemning all of what we see, how about some more info that is needed to determine if it is wrong and the electricians fault, somebody elses fault, or just an ugly ugly install (electricians fault)

I have no problem condemning an incorrect install, union or not, but I can't condemn it unless there is justification.

Some of it is obviously wrong but most cannot be determined with info provided. This is part of the problem with union v. non arguements. You infer more than you have proven.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:20 AM   #4
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


To me it looks like a typical commercial electrician trying to do residential. Most guys I have found who mainly do commercial has no idea what to do in a residential situation. Although they think because they can wire a ten story building a house must be a cake walk. Not the case. I have wired over 500 houses and been the foreman on multiple million dollar electrical contracts for schools and hospitals and such and one is just as easy/hard as the other.
By the way nap what is mangettica inferring? Other than probably knowing he would get your panties all bunched up reading it.
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:01 PM   #5
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


other than the uglies, I read into his post that there were technical problems. I simply asked him to explain them because to me, they are not apparent with the info available.

and not that it doesn't happen but how often is 3phase used in residential work.

he tossed up some pics and claims there is something wrong with what is in the pic. Without further info, that is not apparent and/or there is explanation that would remove the problem from the actions of the electrician.
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:18 PM   #6
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


I believe the feeders are 500's, but they may be 350's. This is a building that used to be some sort of industrial facility that was renovated to (6) "Manhattan style" condominiums. Each condo panel is protected by a 100 main breaker. There are (3) 3-ton, and (4) 2-ton A/C RTU condensing units, laundry, kitchen, and bathroom circuits, gas-fired ovens, and your normal square footage loads. The house panel is protected by a 200 amp main breaker, lights, emergency circuits, and an elevator load. My biggest concern was the #6 copper used for the GEC to the water pipe and the gas pipe in front of the panel cover. Is there anything in article 250 that would permit a #6 to be used to protect a 350 copper sec?

Last edited by Magnettica; 06-24-2008 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:23 PM   #7
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


any idea what the size of the riser conduit is? It does look as it may be 4" but tough to tell.

Quote:
Is there anything in article 250 that would permit a #6 to be used to protect a 350 copper sec?
if it is to a ground rod only, obviously #6 is quite acceptable.

depending on how the water piping system is assembled, 250.104(A)(2) may be applicable and a #6 would be acceptable in that case.

250.104(B) allows a gas line to be bonded with a conductor sized based upon the circuit size likely to energize the pipe so a #6 would be oversize in most applications

So, yes, depending on the exact situation, #6 may be perfectly fine. Tough to make the call without all the info.
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Old 06-30-2008, 08:28 AM   #8
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


my question is to the locations of the bugs at the service cap?????
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:05 PM   #9
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
any idea what the size of the riser conduit is? It does look as it may be 4" but tough to tell.

if it is to a ground rod only, obviously #6 is quite acceptable.

depending on how the water piping system is assembled, 250.104(A)(2) may be applicable and a #6 would be acceptable in that case.

250.104(B) allows a gas line to be bonded with a conductor sized based upon the circuit size likely to energize the pipe so a #6 would be oversize in most applications

So, yes, depending on the exact situation, #6 may be perfectly fine. Tough to make the call without all the info.
Gas furnaces in each of the condos but that picture is of the water main, not gas main. They're all fed with #12 NM cables and therefore each of the gas pipes are bonded with a #12 cu. That takes care of 250.104. Each of the condos has their own MLO panel and none of them have their own jumper to a water pipe. I have jumped each of them in townhouses but it wasn't done here. What else do you need to know? I believe the #6 H20 grounding electrode conductor is undersized.
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:24 PM   #10
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


It's hard to tell from the pic but it looks like they could use some more drip in there loop.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:02 PM   #11
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Quote:
Gas furnaces in each of the condos but that picture is of the water main, not gas main.
I never thought it was gas. Not even sure where you got that from since 250.104(A)(2) deals with water pipe, not gas pipe.




Quote:
Each of the condos has their own MLO panel and none of them have their own jumper to a water pipe. I have jumped each of them in townhouses but it wasn't done here. What else do you need to know? I believe the #6 H20 grounding electrode conductor is undersized.
then yes, it does seem to be undersized.

see, with proper and fairly complete information (at least enough to make a reasonable conclusion anyway), I am not so argumentative.

So, what have you done about it? and just curious but why are there multiple EC's on the job?
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:35 AM   #12
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Sorry to drag out an old thread, but the original post was too interesting to leave alone.
Some random pictures and the only info given was 'see, union guys are morons too'.

I also got the impression studying the pics that the installer was not in resi. Even further, I'd guess he's a green apprentice that shouldn't be near that stuff.

But beside the install, and about the comment;
What's with the random attack?
Did someone once argue that upon joining the union you are given 50 more IQ points?

IBEW JATC training is well known to be the best in the world.
The JATC screening and acceptance procees is more structured and refined than most companies dream of (my interview depended on 8 guys representing labor and management to agree I was worthy).

But even the best training can't change a moron. Yale and Harvard our a couple of the best our country has to offer, but even from those we get George Bush.

Comparing apples to apples; the dumbest union guy out there is probably at least half a notch above the dumbest non-union guy out there.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:53 AM   #13
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky Joe View Post
But even the best training can't change a moron. Yale and Harvard our a couple of the best our country has to offer, but even from those we get George Bush.

Comparing apples to apples; the dumbest union guy out there is probably at least half a notch above the dumbest non-union guy out there.
If that were true, then why would the union guys vote for an ex-cocaine addict WITH NO executive/leadership experience, WITH NO economics experience and WITH NO real world job experience to be their President who will have you sitting on the bench being he will REPEAT the Carter years.

Obama’s experience:

Crack addict.
Brainwashed with “HATE AMERICA SERMONS” for 20 years.
Encouraged to go into politics by Communist party members who bombed the Pentagon.
Experienced at not showing his position and just being vague about all positions.
Close relationships with felons and other people who hate America.

Need I go on?

How could a fellow “brother” in the trades “union or not” support someone this UNAMERICAN?
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:22 PM   #14
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Quote:
Originally Posted by AskForTheSale View Post
Obama’s experience:

Crack addict.
Brainwashed with “HATE AMERICA SERMONS” for 20 years.
Encouraged to go into politics by Communist party members who bombed the Pentagon.
Experienced at not showing his position and just being vague about all positions.
Close relationships with felons and other people who hate America.

Need I go on?
?
Yes. Support your claims.

Crack addict? when and what proof?

encouraged by communists that bombed the pentagon? Uh, who was this and when did it happen?

The vagueness; I will agree, sometimes but so is every other politician at times.

Close relationship with felons and other people who hate America; who?

You do realize you post has gone beyond opinion and if untrue, is libel. Let's see your proof.
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:18 PM   #15
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


AskForTheSale, you are a moron.

Take your unwanted political rhetoric back to the P&R section where it belongs.
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:21 PM   #16
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


I have learned to keep my opinion either in P&R or to myself but sometimes it's tough.
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:00 PM   #17
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
Yes. Support your claims.

Crack addict? when and what proof?

encouraged by communists that bombed the pentagon? Uh, who was this and when did it happen?

The vagueness; I will agree, sometimes but so is every other politician at times.

Close relationship with felons and other people who hate America; who?

You do realize you post has gone beyond opinion and if untrue, is libel. Let's see your proof.
Google is your friend.

Educate yourself instead of listening to America haters and reading the Communists on the far left sites and on TV.
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:07 PM   #18
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


edit

Last edited by AskForTheSale; 09-30-2008 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:09 PM   #19
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
AskForTheSale, you are a moron.
Thank you. Can I take a bow?

Quote:
Take your unwanted political rhetoric back to the P&R section where it belongs.
Hmm. Wonder why you didn't tell the previous poster that who started the political rhetoric against the non-union guys he trashed.

I am through. You can relax. Just had to defend the NON-UNION GUYS
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:40 PM   #20
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Re: 400 Amp Service GEC


I am all for defending non-union guys. We need all the support we can get.
I just disagree with the scathing political rant in these forums. This is NOT the place for it.
The prior GWB comment was harmless, your tirade was slanderous.

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