Octagonal Stairs

Cache

Alright. Here is one that I haven't run into before, or at least I was hoping there is an easier way of doing it than I've been exposed to in the past.

Need to build a stacked octagonal staircase in the center of the house. One end leading up the the 2nd story and the other down to the basement. Wasn't supposed to be difficult at all, but then the HO decided that he wants an open skirt on the main floor.

My first thought is to build it like I would build an open circular staircase, with welded sheet metal making up the stringers. But I have to wonder if this is the easiest way to do it. Or is there a framing trick that I just don't know.

Anyway, from the main floor it goes up 6 risers to a landing, turns 45* and then up 6 more risers, turns 45* again and up 5 more risers. I realize that I could locate posts to support the inside corners of the landings and leave the rest of the skirt open with railing. But the HO doesn't want that. Any thoughts?

TaitINC

What if you went up for support instead of down. Since I'm not sure what the style of the home is, this application could vary. On first thought, maybe a braided steel wire to the ceiling? Or whatever would match the style of the home.

Cache

Interesting thought, but the HO doesn't want anything but railing above or below the stringers.

genecarp

Gotta go with steel, get the arch or engineer on the project to spec the detail, give it to your metal guy. If there is no arch or engineer on the job, then you need a good steel guy who can handle the job. The staircase you are describing is not going to be knocked togeter using framing lumber. G

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Willie T

Google: "Stair ****" to give you some wild ideas. Don't worry, it's NOT a **** site.

Run your mouse over all the pictures... AND all over the TEXT. There are dozens of idea links hidden in the text.

Be sure to scroll down wherever you find yourself.... This site is not real organized, and neat things are tucked away everywhere.

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ScipioAfricanus

I think Gene nailed it.

I really liked the general idea of this kind of staircase.

This one is not completed yet, still working out some changes for the HO.

Andy.

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Cache

Yeah, I figured that was gonna be the case. Gonna have to go talk to my steel guy, and figure things out. Around here people usually don't get plans from either an engineer or an arch. The problem is that it is also illegal for an engineer to stamp plans that he didn't draw. Gonna have to count on the skills of my metal fab shop.

loneframer

I saw a staircase that was completely self supporting done with two 45* landings. The stair stringers were built by laminating plywood with some type of structural adhesive and had the landing segments integrated into them. A cleat on the floor kept the bottom of the stairs from kicking, at the top, the stringers were let into the floor system with a similar detail as the landing. After, mechanical fasteners and lots of steel bracketswere used to connect the landing sections, the joints were built up with fiberglass mat and resin. As crazy as it sounds, the stairbuilder is also a structural engineer and the stairs were solid as if they had posts under the corners. Freaky to look under the landings and see nothing.

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Gus Dering

Now that would have made a good picture.

We really need to have a chat about you and your lack of pertinent picture posts.

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loneframer

I'll try to be more diligent in the future Gus, sorry.

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joasis

Just curious, but how can that be? Does the state force architects and engineers to work together? Here, we take plans, or specs to an engineer, and he runs the calcs, and approves or disapproves them, and his stamp is good for the plan, or the limits defined by the engineer.

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Cache

As far as I know it is illegal in most states for an engineer to simply look over and provide a stamp on plans that weren't drawn by him. The justification for the law is that simply looking over a set of plans doesn't familiarize the engineer enough with the project to qualify a professional approval. I here guys talk all the time about taking a set of plans from a drafter to an engineer to get them stamped. Every time I've asked an engineer here to stamp a set of plans, they claim that in order to do that, they must redraw the plans themselves. Not that they don't want an easy paycheck, but that the law doesn't allow it. Architects say the same thing.

I looked into it and found several references that claim it is illegal in almost every state. That doesn't mea that it isn't done, but just that it is technically illegal pretty much everywhere.

Here is a copy of one state law, and pretty much every state has this sort of law.

Subsection 4 specifically states that a stamp and signature shall be used by licensees only if the work being stamped was under the licensee’s complete direction and control... In order to properly stamp plans prepared by an employee, the engineer must exercise “ direct supervisory control.” as defined by the regulations.

Around here, the archs always have a relationship with at least one engineer, so that they qualify. The law has additional guidelines that allow for "plan stamping" of plans that were done by either a licensed arch or engineer of that state. Residential isn't usually required to have a stamp in the first place, so the majority of plans are done by drafters or even the HO themselves. Stamping of this type of plan is illegal in all 50 states I believe.

OTOH, an engineer can provide drawings of a particular structural element, without redrawing the entire set of construction docs, but that element can't really be central to the integrity of the structure.

Cache

Just in case you are curious Joasis. I pulled the actual statement from the state laws for your state (Oklahoma right?). Every time I've brought this to the attention of other builders they get this look of bewilderment on their face. Then most of them claim that it is allowed in their state. Like I said, it is done all the time, but it is still illegal in every state that I've ever looked into.

"Plan stamping" -- the affixing by a design professional of his seal or signature to any document not prepared by him or under his responsibility -- is generally considered to be unethical and improper, and to subject a professional to the risk of license suspension or revocation. This practice is prohibited both by state laws and the regulations of state licensing boards.
In some instances these allow documents to be signed and sealed only when the architect or engineer has "directly" prepared the plans and specifications, or when they have been prepared by others and the signing professional was in "responsible charge" -- a phrase that has been defined to mean "direct control and personal supervision."

joasis

My point being, when we take a set of plans in, the engineer takes responsibility. We are both right, and I can see where an engineer could or would duck out. Many, many steel building manufacturers do not have an in house engineer, they use a consulting engineer, and when he affixes his stamp to the plans, he accepts the liability, although he did not draw them. If he rejects a plan, it is redrawn to his specs or calcs, and then approved.

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Cache

Yeah, the way you're doing it is legit. The engineer simply has to be directly responsible for the way the plans are drawn, and have direct oversight. I was referring to residential building where the plans are done by a drafter, or on some DIY home design program and then taken to an engineer. It gets really hard to argue that the engineer stamping the plans had any type of direct involvement in the plans.

spdtrx

Here in our area we don't allow open risers only solid risers for interior residential or provided that the opening between treads does not permit the passage of a sphere with a diameter of 4 inches. Section 1009 Stairways.1009.3.3 Profile. From the 2007 CBC.
I would talk to the AHJ in your area to see what they say.

Cache

Sorry, I might not have been clear. I'm not suggesting open risers. I am suggesting that there will be no skirt wall below the stringers.

spdtrx

No worrys I saw post #6 and thought I would throw that out there to help. Good luck.

basswood

Don't need no stinkin' risers... or stringers:

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Warren

That looks pretty bass, but man you gotta really want a set of stairs to go to all that trouble there!