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Non union jobsite (quaker church)vandalized in philadelphia $500,000 Damage

13K views 41 replies 22 participants last post by  Dirtywhiteboy 
#1 ·
#3 ·
welcome to philadelphia. The problem is that the police (union) wolnt respond/ care and the insurance companies will end up jacking the rates to cover the losses. Who do you think pays for that?

This happens more often then not and it is rarely reported or makes news.

Besides the other obvious problems such as ARSON.
 
#4 · (Edited)
That's the union.

I've told this story before, but back in the early 00's I was awarded work on a renovation of an old Hecht company at a Mall. My contract was to demolish all the split faced block veneer and install the curtain wall for the new storefront including installation of all exterior structural studs and welding of all deflection clips and steel to concrete shelf angles.

The majority of the work was union, aside from myself, the roofer and a glass/glazing contractor.

During the renovation the new Macy's decided they wanted a change order to change the new exterior to a new thin brick veneer on the outside in lieu of powerwashing and painting the CMU. Due to budget constraints the CM competitively bid the work instead of simply awarding it to the union mason that was doing the elevator shafts and miscellaneous work inside.

They wound up awarding it to a non union mason who was close to $10,000 cheaper. ALL the union workers were pissed about that, not just the masons.

About a week prior to this happening, I remember delivering materials one day just before lunch to the guys and it was hot as hell outside and they went inside to break. Three union foreman, who felt our work bordered on the interior division 9 work they were performing came up to all of us and said word for word "this will be the only day you will eat in here, and count your blessings your working outside. If you were working any of the carpentry you'd be in trouble". What we were doing WAS and IS carpentry. Commercial carpentry. I guess since we also had Miller mig's in our hands we were 'borderline'?!?

They and I had words but wanting to finish the project and move on we went about our business.

The non union company began work about two weeks before we finished the curtain wall construction. They were three hispanic fellows working on a boom outside. I do believe they were legal to my limited knowledge. Words were said in the beginning that they had better pack it up before something happened, but the workers didn't understand much and their foreman who did speak well just told the union men to move along. About a week into their project they broke for lunch and went inside to the food court.

They came back...went up on the boom...and came right back down...FAST.

One died. One was permanently paralyzed, and the other sustained non life threatening injuries. Jobsite shut down for close to a month.

Everyone on the project was questioned, my men and I included. When questioned, it had been found that the hydraulic break lines were cut and leaked out and the lift (older, company owned JLC) had no secondary line of defense. Pictures showed the cut was brand new versus several older line breaks in both side by side comparisons and side tests done on sacrificial brake lines.

Everyone knew who did it, but no one spoke a word. 200 union men on the jobsite from all different trades and not one would talk to police. Simply said I was on lunch and didn't see anything.

We all gave our account of what happened at the time of the accident since we were 40 feet away but they said and we knew they wanted evidence, and no one would corroborate the story of the union intimidation when they first started. Off the record the detective told me he was fully in belief that it was at least two of the union guys on site, based on how they were acting and similar non deadly cases like this in his career, but who out of the 200 he didn't know and couldn't build a case on 5 non union workers(the amount of men I had on the job at the time of incident) "hearsay".

One month later and we are finally back on site. My men are finishing up and I am standing inside the entrance with the glass guy going over our job and making sure he has everything he needs from us to start his work.

You'd think it would be a somber site given the reason we all left for the month, but it was the opposite. They were all happy as can be.

As I was finishing up with the glass guy two of the interior guys walk by laughing while one guy says to the other "****ing scabs got what they deserved. Good riddance to scum."

Sad end over the loss of an exterior veneer job to a non union company.
 
#38 ·
Just stumbled upon this thread. God knows whether the guys who cut those lines just meant to deter or actually harm the guys doing the masonry, but as much as they might have seemed happy or proud about it, I'm 100% sure their conscience is stained by the blood of those they hurt and they will carry that toll until the confess what they have done.
 
#7 ·
The only thing the union does around here is walk in a circle with signs and wistles once a a week for 2 hours.... Lol and the dont even block entrances...
 
#8 ·
Funny, but anytime I see anyone "working" on the roads, there are always at least 1/2 of them are just standing around. IDOT "Illinois Dept of Transportation" was repairing 1 or 2 small potholes near by the other day. 8 guys there with 3-4 trucks and 2 guys barely "working".
I can't believe this state is so badly in the red.
 
#9 ·
I just saw 3 dpw workers fixing a small pothole with cold patch. it was a one man job. Im glad my tax dollars are going to waste.

Towns are the problem. They waste there budgets and ask for higher ones the follwing year. If they actually save money there scated they wont give them a higher budget.

And there not union dpw workers so u cant blame it on the unions...
 
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#12 ·
I call absolute BS, you have no evidence and you throw blame.......Trade unions are different than manufacturing, and the afscme. If those guys didnt speak english they werent citizens. shouldnt be here.

you ***** about the unions but if it werent for unions the private sector pay would be less.

half of the non-union companies dont provide the training to their employees to do the proper work.

Both of these stories are complete hear say and union bashing,
 
#17 · (Edited)
Unions don't cut the hydraulic line of a PEWP. Murderous criminals do. If tradesmen in Philadelphia murder their brothers they aren't following any union constitution.

"The union" only exists on paper. The members are "the union". If union members in Philly kill and maim their brothers then I would look more closely at the culture and character of the tradesmen in Philly and if the guys on that job who know who sabotaged the PEWP and did nothing have to look at themselves in the mirror every day and see a coward. I don't for a minute believe that all my brothers in Philly are murderous criminals and cowards, I've met a few and they were honest stand up guys of good character but obviously if this story is true then there are some bad apples in the barrel. It happens in every local, we turfed an apprentice last week who's mom was paying his dues while he was in prison and would have to do that for a few more years because he was denied parole. We don't want guys like that, he can work non union. I know in our local no one would tolerate sabotage. Those non union guys who went up on that PEWP and got hurt were our brothers not our enemies and the victim of a crime perpetrated by criminals who should be locked up.

I can't speak for my brothers in Philly but I know in my neck of the woods our business reps all have remote starters for their trucks and have been assaulted, tires slashed, property vandalized, wives and children threatened and it isn't the brothers in Philly that are doing this. Assholes are assholes, criminals are criminals. It's the same all over the world, union or non-union. Frankly I would like to see a little more brotherhood in the trade.

As far as the myth of the lazy fat cat union member. We have a market share of about 12% and the only union protection we have is a single shopping mall. Our contractors bid on the open market and win jobs against non union contractors. Our guys get at least 20% more in their pay cheque plus $5/hr in their pension and full bennies and they can still compete with non union trades. We have a lot of union subs working for non union GC's.

Our GC's are on record as being against busting the unions because we treat them as our partners and work with them. We offer over 70 courses ranging from basic literacy and math to construction management all free to union members. My full time job is to work with the contractors, colleges and suppliers and tailor training to their specific needs. We even hold workshops and product demos for the contractors management and estimators in our training facility. I can't speak for what goes on in Philly, NYC or Hong Kong but I know our UBC local is fit, trim and kicking ass.
 
#19 ·
I'll give you some of your argument on the union as correct, we do have a lot of union bashing going on, and rightfully so, I categorize them like the Nazi's and the Muslim's!, as a matter of fact I can throw a few Christians into the heap as well. The above groups have/had their followings and most were dormant, quiet, went on with life people. However, there was the few that have given the majority of them a bad name. I don't think it is necessary for me to name names in the political or religious sects as I am sure most of us here can now see the point I am making.

The lazy fat cat union member you speak of is not a myth, it is reality, they exist, day in, day out. The issue you run into is union protection and the lazy fat cat relies on his union rep to cover his ass based on the contracts that have such clauses for non-firing involved. Example, Molson Breweries could not fire someone for stealing beer from the factory while working, Barrie, ON, 1987. TTC could not fire someone for driving a city bus intoxicated during rush hour full of passengers, Toronto, ON, 1993, National Grocers could not dismiss an employee for being late/missing shifts greater than 55% of the year, Newmarket, 1982. And these are just examples I am personally familiar with. So before you start spouting off that this doesn't exist, it does, I have seen it, and I am sure many other members on here have their own recollections of lazy fat cats in the union.

If any of those incidents happened in the private non-union sector, namely my company, which I own and operate and have full responsibility for...the guys getting fired, no if ands or buts about it.

The union has a hall, yes, so if contractor A needs workers, he can call the hall and have workers relatively quickly with one phone call. If I get a surge in work and need workers, I may need to make 6 - 10 calls, but will get the same results. Neither the union company or myself are guaranteed the quality of workmanship from outsourced workers.

The union has a training facility, I do all my training between my office and mostly in the field...where reality takes place and the reality is, nothing we build is the same as it looks on paper, everything looks easy on paper but job site conditions can dictate another story. Hell, I remember getting matchbooks and on the inside cover was an offer for me to be anything I wanted, just mail a SASE to Box 123, any town, any province, Canada, 1A1 A1A. I know one guy who did this and became a licensed mechanic without ever going to a classroom.

The unions had there place, they did create proper workplace ethics and safety...50 plus years ago...we accept that, we follow the rules and regulations of what they did for us, but now that all that has taken place, we don't need them anymore and they know it, so on now with the scare tactics.

Is there corruption in the unions, damn right there is

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/toront...nto-construction-union-official-says-2#scptid

And it's stories like this that tell us why the Gov't of Canada is standing up against unions and calling them gangs, and why our Gov't is pushing through policy that unions have to open up and show them where the money is coming from. I look forward to our Senate finishing this for everyone to see the corruption.

And just to add fuel to the fire, our Prov. Gov't enacted Bill 115, teachers cannot strike, along with a series of other rules. It's creating havoc here, my kids are currently learning the square root of nothing. I could turn this into a huge topic and opinion, but briefly...these teachers seem to forget it's the 11 million plus people in Ontario who pay taxes to pay their wages, they get payed from public funds, I fund it and the union agreement is out of line as far as I am concerned and most who actually read and understand it.

Shortage of Tradesmen in Canada, yes, just like many other areas in the free world, the industrial revolution is dead, now you have thousands of kids graduating university yearly competing for 10 jobs in the tech field. Our Gov't realizes this and is finally promoting the trades...and loosening the entry requirements, english apparently doesn't have to be good, just be a tradesmen and we can get you in!

If you want to discuss wages...let me know, but I do know I pay higher then the norm, that's why union workers call me for work
 
#20 ·
I'll give you some of your argument on the union as correct, we do have a lot of union bashing going on, a
You dont know what your talking about, those unions you site are not trade unions, first. Second if you dont do what is in the contract documents then your negligent and should be sued for non-compliance to the same documents.

Your full of stuff. to be nice about it. You have no Idea about million dollar projects with 700 page specs, and 300 page drawings. You may be able to build a custom porch or even a house. But when someone designs something that has to be built who does it, you and your trained in the truck crew or a crew that has been trained and certified by the manufacturer to install their product,.....and actually get a warranty out of it too.

Your talking out of an area of your body that needs to be wiped. I personally would stack up my skills against you any day, and I could bring a crew of union carpenters against yours any day and complete all inspections, do it safer, and under budget, without f'ng over my guys.

Oh and by the way, I run work in the Union, if I dont like the way you look I will fire you on the spot, I hate hippies, long hair your fired, stupid earings in lips or brows, fired. I dont give a f$*k you look and act like a profesional carpenter or you hit the road. Business agents can kiss my ass, I have been brought up on charges in the Union, I'm still here.......

Like I stated above in a post I have been doing this over 30 years now, granted most Union carpenters aren't great at resi work. Thats true, but your systematic bs about something you know nothing about is crap
 
#30 ·
I'd love to discuss wages. You go first. What do you pay? Tell me about your pension plan? What benefits do you offer?
I'll bite.

Helpers- $11.00-13.00
Journeyman- $15.00-$18.00
Mechanic- $18.00-$26.00
Superintendent- $28.00-$34.00

Benefits: medical, dental, eye (85% company paid), paid vacation, paid holidays, 401k with company contribution match, safety certification courses

This is in the DELMARVA corridor of the USA. Delaware, Washington, Maryland, Virginia.
 
#31 ·
dave_k said:
I find it offensive and ignorant that you would accuse trade union members to Nazis. The nazis threw union leaders in concentration camps before the went after the Jews The Nazi's were dormant and quiet?!?! Where the hell did you come up with that. The Nazi's marched down the street in brownshirts from their inception, they used to fight commies in the streets in the 1920's. The Muslims and christians are evangelical by nature, Religions don't spread by having their members be quiet door mouses they grow by spreading the word, There has been corruption in politics, religion and business since civilization began

Each of these groups were/are large. For the most part the majority of these groups were quiet people, only a small percentage thought they were better then anyone else...you missed the point. The unions are much the same, most are quiet reserved guys, do there job without issue...then there's the rest, the abusers.

This is a construction forum. None of your examples are construction unions. You show me where anything like that happens in construction unions in Ontario. In our new member orientation we teach members that they have to have an ethical attitude toward their brothers and toward their employer. If a member doesn't have a good work ethic, doesn't show up for work on time, quits jobs for no good reason we kick them out of the union. We don't want them. We don't tolerate a couple of guys pulling the weight for the whole crew. Everyone has to pull their weight.

Construction forum or not...a union is a union

You have more rights to job security in the non union sector than I do under the UBC collective agreement. I can work for a company for 40 years in a supervisory position and be laid off for any reason with 1 hour notice with NO severance pay. You have the right to notice under the law and YOU get severance pay if you are a long term employee. We don't.

Maybe you should join the private sector for better severance package

No one can guarantee the quality of workmanship you are going to get but if a contractor calls the hall looking for a millwright certified in rebuilding Siemens gas turbines or CWB welder certified in 4 positions that also has an diving certificate or a carpenter certified in Peri formwork that can run an 8 ton crane I can get them in a day. Can you?

Maybe 2-3 days, and I stated that above, union makes one phone call, I may have to make 6-10 calls

Yesterday I trained 2 guys in fall arrest for a contractor. The guys showed up at the hall, talked to the receptionist, the receptionist called me and I took the time to teach the guys what they needed to know. I did a class in PWEPS earlier in the week for a drywall contractor and in both cases it didn't cost the contractors a nickel and the guys don't get paid while they train, that's just part of the collective agreement. See if you can get that kind of service anywhere else in Ontario outside of a construction union.

We don't leave our office or site for this training, the trainers come to us

Actually we are still very much involved in construction safety. I sit on the local ISHA safety committee. The non union sector is represented by one member of the construction association. The union sector has representation from every construction union and 3 of our general contractors. The construction association represents the union sector as well BTW. We have 12% of the consruction market and 90% of the seats on the committee. The non union sector doesn't seem to give a rats ass about construction safety except that they think that losing a few lives and maiming a few guys is an acceptable price for keeping up their profit margins. The only time they pay attention is when it's costing them money.

I am not the union, I am not collecting fees from my employees to put someone on your committee, I'll ask them if they want to donate towards this cause...I bet the answer is no. I get regular 'visits' from MOL. To date no fines or violations, my guys and I must be doing something right.

That's LIUNA, the laborers union. That's a sad story. They also have a problem with unfunded liability. If there are any LIUNA members in Ontario reading this we are happy to represent formsetters and we have an affiliate that represents construction craft workers and cement finishers so come on over to the UBC and make more money, get better training and have a pension that's going to be there when you need it ;-).

No comment

That's a drop in the bucket compared to this http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05/22/quebec-corruption-inquiry-charbonneau-commission-construction_n_1535108.html Now THAT's corruption. My BIL does is a GC specializing in roadwork, water and sewer and parks. (non union of course) I remember him getting phone calls telling him what his bid was on projects back in the 1970's. That corruption goes back a LONG way. Don't kid yourself, it's in Ontario too. Union and non-union and it's been around as long as civilization.

I'll read this tomorrow

I don't think you fully understand what we are talking about when we talk about a trade shortage. We aren't talking about framers and renovators or roofers, we will always be flush with them and because we have deindustrialized over the last 40 years the wages they get will be driven down as time goes on. The trade shortage is in the guys serving infrastructure and the resource sector. These guys can't be trained in your office or out on the job. Industrial millwrights don't take their severance pay from the factory layoff go to home depot and buy some tools and start building petrochemical plants for beer money. We used to get our tradesmen from Europe which was fine when there were world wars every few years and people wanted to leave europe but today they live better over there than we do here. It's going to be a problem because these are the guys who keep the lights on and the water running.

There is trade shortages in every industry here in Canada, companies need incentive to enter certain fields, wages in our industry go up and down based on supply, demand and skill level

The apprenticeship programs are getting good press and lip service from the government however we aren't getting the numbers through the program that the government would lead us to believe they are training. College programs are often half full and a lot of apprentices wash out. One of the major problems is the kids that are encouraged into apprenticeships are lacking in essential skills for employment http://www.wem.mb.ca/the_9_essential_skills.aspx we do run courses for our members who wash out of the apprenticeship program for whatever reason to help them get their red seal. Sometime they just need a refresher to take a run at the exam, or don't have experience in a specific part of the exam but sometimes we find they have problems with math or literacy that keeps them from going to school. Either way we help our guys succeed.

Yes, your union is putting people through, many should not be in the program, but to keep your numbers high and maintain your income, they are pushed through even when they are not ready to be out doing what they are suppose to be qualified for.


I'd love to discuss wages. You go first. What do you pay? Tell me about your pension plan? What benefits do you offer?

High School Student 12.00
Part Time 16.00
Full Time Start 20-22.00
Lead Hand 24-32.00
Foreman 35-42.00

I'll match employees RRSP contribution, I carry the disability while working, need prescription or glasses? Bring me the bill it will be a reimbursement on your next cheque.

Performance bonus based on profit

So, I guess you stick to your union...we will stay out...as per the employees last discussion, they are quite happy without you
 
#37 ·
#40 ·
Well, since I'm all 3 things under discussion in this thread I may as well weigh in. 1 I'm a Christian
2 I'm a non union carpenter +
3 I'm a vested Union Laborer.
I work union work for Union Contractors on highway and oil
I got my start in the union by a great guy that sponsored me and put me thru the Drillers course running rock drills . Never did any drilling for a union outfit yet tho.
With Big companies oil and gas, highway builders I wouldn't want to work for them without the union backing me, corrupt, crooked, greedy, cut throat. The most morally reprobate people I've met were the higher ups in these companies. Having the union on my side is comforting .
I keep jobs laboring by out working the 25 year holds. And not getting hurt, being on time and putting in the full day. I don't work any harder on any job than I do on a union job. And the proof is that I get dispatches for me specifically.
But I grew up working hard and had a good career as a timber faller in S.E. Alaska. Before I ever joined the union.
Yes the thot of some union punk sabotaging a church building project enrages me same as it would if they wernt union. And I have seen lots of lazy culls in the hall. I just don't hang around them, too busy working.
 
#41 ·
Big problem I see is not enough people Like to work Hard. On the North Slope the unions have to compete for the contracts with non union companies. There's a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on sometimes when u drive by a highway construction job and a laborer is leaning on a shovel. And if anyone wants to run their gob about it come and lay pipe with me for a while. See how you do running a jumpin jack all day working 7-12 s.
 
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