Licensed And Regulated Framing??

wallmaxx

I just read the plumbing thread and thought about this idea for carpenters.

Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC, fire, etc. all have a state regulated training and licensing program (a shop must have at least one Master Electrician License or Master Plumbing License to operate as a legal business for example)

I would like to see the same strict law applied to structural wood / steel framing. We build structures that HAVE to stand...or people will die.

My chosen profession is FULL of Home Depot hacks who buy a hammer and a ladder rack and now they are framers...or worse yet remodelers or General Contractors. I see so many DIY-ers who fix there own fence and then think they can build an addition for a guy around the corner.

I would like to see each framing company have to have at least one master carpenter, as certified by a national standard, to operate as a legal business......it would sure cut down on the hacks and illegals.

as O'Reilly says

What say you?

Meetre

It would be nice, like you said, get rid of some of the hacks. But, the money in this industry is with the generals and home owners, and trying to tell them that it's worth the price increase, well, let's just not hold our breath on that one. the builders who know the difference, pay for that quality, the rest won't want to.

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KentWhitten

I have thought about this for years. Same idea, same concept. Just come to the same answer as meetre. It's too ingrained now for people to change. The best you can do is lobby your state gov't for licensing. I know those inspector guys up there in Snoho county used to go out weekends and make sure anything they saw being built, they took notes and checked Monday to see if they had a permit.

People are going to do what they feel like doing. Here in Maine, there's nothing at all. Zero. You can get a permit for a house the day you walk in. You don't need to be a contractor, builder, licensed, insured....nothing. "Just make sure you don't kill anyone *wink wink*"

testing, regulation, and licensing would be optimal. I would go for it. But the vast majority won't IMO. Sucks, but that's the way it is.

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john5mt

Are you sure you want to hand over the government more power? Not me. People will pay what they want to pay to have things done. If you get too regulated they will just pay their neighbor to "help them" do that addition and put everyone except the BIG boys out of business. All they will do is hire one "master carpenter" who has the certification but doesn't necessarily know how to do it right and then hire a whole bunch of bone heads and illegals to whip through the project. Anyone like me who is only 26 will have no chance of breaking into the business till im 35 because of the required time or certification needed and then my body will be useless and i will have to hire young bucks to do the work anyway. Besides we don't make enough as it is, why do we want to add more cost, more schooling, and more government fees just to build a house for someone. I still choke every time i see a $5000 impact fee tacked on top of a house permit.

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wallmaxx

I hear you. Our Co. is looking at a new impact fee (tax) of up to $9000 per project....H E L L O....the housing boom is over....why tack on the fee NOW???

neolitic

Because of what it costs the rest
of us for schools, roads, drainage,
sewage treatment, snow removal,
police, fire, waste disposal,....
when 10,000 units of vinyl villages
suddenly spring up out of the surrounding
cornfields.
Those houses create demands on the system
now and it isn't pretty what
that does when the 100 year old neighborhoods
have to pay for that as well as the last
100 years of improvements they already
contributed to.
At least that's what it looks like here.

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Tinstaafl

Bingo. In principle, I'm not at all against certification. However, we've all met people who ace their tests, yet don't have an ounce of real-world common sense. Conversely, the best carpenter I've ever met would probably never be able to pass a written test. His brain just doesn't work that way.

Caveat emptor. Building a house or large addition is one of the largest expenditures the average person makes in his lifetime, and those who expect the government to ensure that anyone with a license will do quality work are living in a fantasy world.

Word of mouth is the best certification anyone could ask for. If you're going to spend a big chunk of money, it behooves you to do a big chunk of homework first. If you don't, you're either not too bright or just plain lazy.

Bill

In Virginia to do any structural changes on a building you are required to have a building endorsement on your license which requires a test.

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Meetre

Like I said, in a perfect world, sign me up. But, we don't live near perfect, and in the long run, it would be harder for some of us small guys to get into the business. I remember living in ND (North Dakota). to get your contractors license there, you get insurance, workers comp., and show that to the secretary of state's office. If you have never had a complaint against you, bing, you are licensed. A lawyer in a sub-division I was working on was making a push for testing, and the contractors in that town got together and squashed it. They didn't want to pay for crews that had to pass a test!!!! would cost them too much money to build houses like that!!! Of course the builder who built the house for the lawyer that started it all has been sued MANY time, once even had to buy a house back from a customer b/c the judge told him to!!!

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DavidC

In my neck of the woods there are no licenses for anything except in the nearest city, where the plumbers and furnace men are licensed. Permits are issued to the HO regardless of who does the paperwork. We have a form that authorizes us to get the permit on the owners behalf. You do need insurance certs. on file at the city and county level to pull a permit. New electrical and service entrances need to be inspected by a certified agency.

That is our regulation in a nutshell. There are of course the usual inspections with the permits.

Guess what, we have the same type of hacks and under the table contractors that everybody complains about in the areas that are licensed and regulated the most. In my mind it just adds more fees to the administrating gov't. without curing the problem. It's been pointed out before that the licensed guys that run afowl of the local regs get more grief than the ones that get caught (rare) operating without a license.

Already the IRS can hang you on a short rope for misclassifying employees as subs, the State board can shut you down for not carrying Comp. Ins. and your State UI office will impose hefty fees on those that try to skirt their regs. All of these have enough teeth to avert the wannabes if they had more than a slim chance of getting caught.

More regs mean more paperwork, fees and responsibilities for the legitamate contractor and an incrementally bigger government. It has no effect on the hacks and lowballers because they don't follow the rules already. (possibly they could actually charge more while still lowballing us because it will cost us more to operate)

Third party certification sounds like a better answer to me. That is something you can market.

Good Luck
Dave

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Meetre

Here in Idaho, we just got manditory registration a few years ago. Similar to ND, must have insurance and comp. No test, nothing extra. There is a group that has started privately "licensing" contractors and I'm thinking about getting that also. Nothing to do with the state requirments, just a little extra for customers to know that you know what you are doing.

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richardframing

Regulation? What good would it do? There is already enough regulation, probably just not enforcement. The system we have has lots of regulation or consequences. Liability, occupational health and safety, payroll, building codes, workers comp. If all these things were enforced better especially ohs, payroll and building codes in a way that it put more liability on the contractor/builder or framer (trade) then it would probably be more like a certification. In alberta you can get comp if you have a incorporated company or you hire people. You can get an incorporated company for two hundred bucks. Private liability insurance is easy to obtain and your in business. One thousand bucks and you've got enough tools to build a house (barely). Work your ass off dawn to dusk for a year or two and you might succeed. Builders like people who low-ball but they wont always use them. I wouldn't buy a $99 nailgun and most builders wouldn't buy similar for there framer. I also wouldn't buy a 700 dollar nailgun. To many framers look through a workers mind. The fact is your in business. You have to work for your customer not for your pride. Put yourself in the customers shoes. What does he or she want. Every customer wants or prefers quality, timeline, service and general lack of hassle. Put this all together and you'll have lots of customers. Go overboard on timeline and by doing to much quality and using to much wood then you'll be out of business. Go skimpy on quality and you'll go out of business. Ask them for money every week and you'll be working for me at a discount of course. Don't consider payroll and comp regulations and you'll eventually get put out of business. The building community is small everywhere, its always easier to be and incumbent than a new comer. Building is a marathon not a track meet. If more framers worked for there customers and not for themselves there would be less crying. If there was more enforcment of regulation maybe we would get more money and a few scabs would leave. I stricter system on payroll and contracting would probably do the most for me. To many people in this business don't pay there guys legally. To many small companies don't pay there taxes. If there was a clearance system on contractors putting the ownus on the payer to obtain a clearance much like wcb is here in alberta it would help clear up the difference between a contractor and an employee and slow down some of the hacks who go bankrupt and cheat on taxes etc. my two cents

Theophilus20

Regulation is just inviting Government Sized trouble.

When i left Oregon, the State had its hands in every part of the building industry. Every Part.

The state was still FULL of: illegal builders, projects that didnt meet code, poor quality everywhere, and we (Who were Legit) just got to pay alot of extra money for the privlage of having a govt agency that took your money but didnt change anything that was being done.

Good carpenters were still doing the right thing, and the dirt bags were still doing the wrong thing.

We all just got to pay alot of extra money to watch it all happen.

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Brutus

In Canada... you have to be certified to be a plumber or an electrician.

You have to be certified to be a F***ING HAIR DRESSER! But as someone else said... any schmuck can walk up, get a building permit, and they will say "dont kill anyone!".

You can get certified as a carpenter here, and it does help your case, but it is not necessary.

Alanp

Here we go more Government control, every good carpenter I mean good carpenter learned on the job. One problem is that the public wants this cheap labor, no experience, no insurance. One other thing is if they were certified like most framing inspectors are we would be in big trouble, I have to say just because you have that piece of paper does not mean you know what you’re talking about.
What will happen is these clowns will take a test online get their so called license and the yuppies of the word will run to them, believe me I don't know the answer, I go up against allot of what I call cell phone builders, put on a good display, have money to hire these smucks but they could not build a simple dog house, have no tools, won’t even step foot on your property after the contract is signed, all subs, the subs are running the job via cell phone. But yet these guys continue to get work why, big name, fancy signs ect.

In as much as I hate to say it, the customers are the one who are ignorant if they hire poor contractors, when I hire subs and I do I look at their past work, do they pay their bills, do they have tools, good tools ect. How many realtors are there out there doing rehabs and remodels that should not be, give it a face lift and flip it, we don’t need more government control, we need to secure our borders keeps the illegal’s out. If we need to get people back to work. The tax payers, the ones who live here.
WE NEED LESS GOVERNMENT NOT MORE LOOK AT CALIFORNIA, NEVADA ALL THOSE STATES WITH THERE BS GOING ON WITH THE LIBERALS THEY ARE BROKE, SOON WE WILL ALL BE IF THINGS DON'T CHANGE NOW
Like Bill says on Fox the folks need to step up and change Washington.
Watch Glen Beck it will raise the hair on your neck we are in deep poo

katoman

A lot of what has been said is true. Regulations won't get rid of the hacks.

But here's the problem. If you are underground and something happens, like someone gets hurt, or you cause a fire, or whatever - you are toast, done, finished.

The fines for no workers comp, no insurance, etc. will ruin you. And they WILL come after your personal assets.

I always inform my clients that to hire anyone that is not above board is a huge risk to them, as it puts the liability on the home owner. Just tell a new client this and see if they still want to hire joe hack.

Most HO are really not aware of the risks they are taking. Inform them.

kcremodeling

I really don't think it would make a big difference in my area. You do have to be licensed to pull any type of permit. However, if people can get away without pulling a permit they skip out on it. This would def increase the cost to build a deck. No longer could you sell the deck and have your sub build the deck. Your sub would have to have his license.

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Remodelor

What could possibly go wrong with an improperly framed house? Nails + Wood = House. It's as simple as that

In all seriousness though, in my area, ANY structural work requires a permit. If someone wants a non-structural wall removed or added, it's no big deal, but if we have to replace a load bearing wall with a header, or do an addition, we are required to have a builder's permit that requires licensing. It may not be as strict as an electrical permit, but there are inspections required. I've done some small stuff without a permit, like replace an already rotted or termite destroyed stud, but anything beyond that and I pull a permit and get an inspection.