I Need Verification Of Prices Charged

Ed the Roofer

I am asking a favor from the carpenters on this forum. I have the prices from this following invoice as my line item pricing in my contract. This is from an insurance job that is supposed to be paid by All State. Even though he had approved the job specs and received a copy of the signed contract and requested that I get started ASAP, he never kept contact with me even though I e-mailed him every night and even set up a photo gallery forum to post over 200 pictures of the job.

This small home and detached garage both were clobbered by a very large tree falling on them, which broke and dislodged a significant amount of rafters on each building.

I notified the adjuster by e-mail every night of what additional work needed to be done and attached photos eeach time. There would up being an entire additional roof and plywood roof decking underneath the layer that we observed. 3 adjusters did not notice this illegal application either, so that is the reason for so much plywood removal and replacement.

Now, after the job is complete, he is saying my prices are too high and even told the customer that I am charging too much.

Are my unit prices in line? This is for the Chicago area, where the prevailing wage for carpenters would be a little over $ 40.00 per hour for comparisons sake.

If I am low or high, would you mind including the prices charge in your area, especially if it is a comparable area to Chicago area.

I set up a website forum photo gallery to document everything and here is that link:
http://rightwayroofing.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=2

Here are the prices per lineal foot and square foot charged.

Thanks,

Ed




1. Original Contract Proposal Agreed To; Total Amount = $

2. Village Roof Permit Fee = $

Per prices referred to and included in the agreed to and submitted contract proposal and also on signed and approved change orders, with additional e-mails sent, the following additional work was required.

3. Remove and replace 408 feet of 2” x 4” rafters @ $ 6.00 per lineal foot = $

4. Remove and replace 144 feet of 2” x 6” rafters @ $ 7.00 per lineal foot = $

5. Remove and replace 64 feet of 1” x 8” wooden soffit boards @ $ 5.50 per lineal foot = $

6. Remove and replace 550 feet of 1” x 6” plank board decking @ $ 3.50 per lineal foot = $

7. Remove and replace 70 feet of 1” x 6” wooden fascia boards @ $ 4.50 per lineal foot = $

Removal and replacement of 2 separate layers of plywood deck sheathing at 53 sheets per layer. As per the contract proposal and the signed change orders, the 1st 25 % is to be billed @ $ 2.00 per square foot and the remainder drops down to a discounted price @ $ 1.50 per square foot. 53 sheets x 2 layers thick = 106 sheets total x 32 square feet each sheet = 3,392 square feet total. 3,392 sq ft x 25 % = 848 sq ft. The remainder is 3,392 sq ft – 848 sq ft = 2,544 square feet.

8. 848 square feet @ $ 2.00 per square foot = $

9. 2,544 square feet @ $ 1.50 square foot = $

Per the signed contract proposal change order and e-mail notification with detailed photos of the entire job progression supplied, there was an additional hidden layer of asphalt composition shingles on the house roof, sandwiched in between the 2 layers of plywood decking and an additional cut back layer on the garage roof as well, at an additional cost of .50 per square foot, including additional clean up and removal fees.

10. 2,367 total square feet of additional tear-off including landfill disposal X .50 cents per square foot = $

Painting of the replaced soffit and fascia boards, @ T & M @ $ 65.00/man/hour per the contract.

11. 2 man hours x $ 65.00 per man hour = $

Material from Ace Hardware = $

13. Sub-Total = $

Patrick

Not sure about the rest, But I would say your giving him a really good deal on the plywood, and stripping. We're getting minimum $2.50/sqft on ply, around $0.80 /sqft to strip And we are not the cheapest around not sure how new england prices relate to your area though. Do the big insurance co's take into account local pricing, or do they average pricing throughout their coverage area?

Ed the Roofer

They use a software from MS/B which, in theory uses localized averages. Also, according to many cat-adjusters I have discussed this with, the All State "Version" of the MS/B pricing guideline comes in at a lower rate than the actual non-modified version off the shelf, and comes in less than the other more commonly used softeare by adjusters, which is Exactimate.

My contention is, that by using averages, taking into consideration that 80% are out of business in 5 years and out of the remaining 20%, 80% of them are out of business in the next 5 years. So, by using the "Generalized" average pricing would mean to clump me in with the 96% attrition rate contractors using the "Going Out Of Business Prices".

I am seeking a comparative line item by line item cost from the invoice per foot amounts.


Thanks,

Ed

GregS

Stupid question I know.. but did they sign the change orders? Complete with pricing?

They are telling you you are too expensive after the fact?

Ed the Roofer

The "Home Owners" signed for every stick of lumber used and even signed a final "End Of Job Evaluation For Customer Satisfaction" form which they concurred that all amounts of materials invoiced for and the dollar amounts were exactly as stated.

My problem is with the adjuster from All State.

He was very co-operative initially. (2 preceeding adjusters got the measurements wrong. 1st measured only 40 % of the total surface, and the 2nd just concurred with the 1st and never even measured and told the HO's that there was nothing he could do.)

This 3rd adjuster agreed with my measurements, as we went on the roofs together with my 100 foot tape measure. He told the HO's that my estimate was correct. He told me, in front of the home owner, that due to the multi-trade functions which needed to be performed on this job, that per their method of calculating the total costs, that I would be due an additional 29% for general contractors Overhead and Profit.

What he did not inform anyone of, even though he had a copy of my signed contract with all of the unit pricing in it, was that he wants to use his calculated figures to come up with the total payout.

I was led to believe, that since he had my signed contract and pricing and that he requested me to get my crew started on the job ASAP, that he was in agreement with my contractual pricing.

Well, I guess that even with his versaion of the pricing, including the "Additional" 29% O & P allowance, their total comes out to about $ 4,000.00 less than my actual invoice amount qwithout adding the 29% on top of it.

He, being the adjuster, is not who I have a contract with, but it is he and his company, who I am relying on for the full payment, minus the HO's deductible amount.



That is why I wanted to see if my rates charged for the individual items were within reason, as far as we can guess, from across the country.

Ed

Pavola

Ed, I'm guessing the greater Detroit area is pretty comparable in material and labor. Based on the pics, I think the your prices are in line with the job. Those prices aren't obviously for new work, but here you're working above and trying to maintain an existing ceiling structure. If the 1X8 is rough-sawn, I'd price it the same as the 2X6. I look at it terms of a remodel and would be comfortable charging those rates.

Ed the Roofer

Finally, today the Home Owner notified me that they recieved the amended adjustment figures.

It winds up being about $ 5,000.00 less than my signed contract prices, even when I do not add that theoretical 29 % O & P the adjuster stated that I would be entitled to, on top of the actual contract cost, due to the multi trade experience required.

Interestingly enough, the figure that they came up with, which winds up about $ 5,000.00 less than my figures already includes the 29 % O & P on top of their generous allotment for the amounts they estimated to be paid.

His calculations are dated 3 weeks after we were done with the job and sent in our invoice.

Ed

I am looking for specific line item dollar amounts that you actually would or have charged for something anywhere near similar.


P.S. Pavola,
Have you ever done any work for Pete Jonna of Jonna Construction in the Detroit area? I did the tile roof and the membrane roof and the architectural sheet metal on the Romanos Macaroni Grill on 7 Mile Road in Livonia back in the winter of 1993 for his company. He seemed like a real nice guy.

Tom M

I would 've billed straight man/hours per day with o&h in the number per hour then some profit. I cant see billing anyone for footage on lumber. If I hire out there is alway a cost for pulling the old structure and then crew size per day to get it back on.

Ed the Roofer

Insurance companies and most customers as well, prefer to have a fixed dollar number to a task.

They don't want to leave an entire job open to a T & M hourly charge. I should probably recalculate my per foot prices to compare them to the actual man hours spent on the job and then add in the material costs.

That being said, I have no clue as to how they are calculating the R & R of rafters on this job. It comes out to about a buck a foot. That is ridiculous.

Ed

POOLMANinCT

ed, i was once told when "health & safety" are emphasised nobody has the balls to say no. perhaps mold will kill you, prevent perpetual structural damage... etc...

for exampkle my bro was being taxed as a 2 family house & town & insurance company wanted him to remove a stair case in the back (huge 1890s farm house) one letter to ins company & town that a potentional fire egress was to be removed and they backed off quick.... just my .02 & felt like hearing myself talk.

ray

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MacRoadie

Have you started putting polite pressure on the homeowner? Your contract is with him and he is simply tendering his claim to his carrier for payment. At the end of the day, the HO is still responsible for payment.

A little pressure on him will result in a few calls from him to the adjuster and you might see some movement, especially if he drops a "bad faith" bomb on the carrier.

It's like any other insurance claim. Sometimes the insured has a deductible, sometimes an SIR (self-insured retention), and sometimes the carrier simply pulls coverage or uses coverage arguments to pull some portion of the coverage. At the end of the day, the homeowner still has to make up the difference.

Pavola

Ed, I substituted your prices for mine in a similar project I did and tried to match as best I could. Was a good exercise since I bid demo. and rebuild separately and also by sq ft. To make your prices match my bid total I dropped the 2X6 price you have to $5/ft and came pretty close. I started with the 2X6 only because my first impression was that your 2X prices seemed high. So based on that, "I would have priced the 2X4 at $4/ft and 2X6 at $5/ft" and not changed any others. This would lower your total by roughly $1000, but where do they get the 5K difference from? Hope this helped.

I haven't met or worked for him, although I've heard of them.(mostly commercial?) But that Mac Grill, I've been to several times. Next time I'll check 'er out.

Ed the Roofer

I did all of that Mission S tile with one helper, except for the loading aspect.

That was done in the midst of a raging blizard and a deep freeze, or as you guys would call it, a typical sunny day in Detroit.

Ed

Tom M

Ed anyway you work up the numbers by foot. It still doesnt equate to a going rate or your actual time. The adjuster might have a cost per foot of install but that is new work and it will not reflect your set -up conditions and demo tasks. Even if he has numbers on all your tasks, the adjuster could of omitted something by accident in the process. I would re introduce an actual breakdown of your alloted expenses, they might realize ther was more to do on the project than first thought.

Pavola

Oh yeah, and that reminds me, I just ran out of sunscreen. Gotta get more.

MacRoadie

Sometimes the best way is to fight fire with fire. Contractors who anticipate doing alot of work for insurance companies will often invest in their own copy of Exactimate. It's often the only language those guys understand and will accept as an industry "standard".

Keep in mind that even though it is a database of costing, with the ability to automatically adjust for local pricing, you can still manipulate all the costs in the database to whatever you want them to be. I've seen adjusters do this on both sides of the table, especially when a homeowner is fighting their carrier and hires an independent adjuster. Funny how two Exactimate estimates can be 20% off on the exact same scope of work.

Tiger

Just my opinion Ed, you might be over-thinking this. It's the adjuster's job to pay you less so the insurance company can profit more. Send a letter of intent to lien to the homeowner, with your sincere apologies, of course. Tell the homeowner they need to yell at the insurance company and get this taken care of. The price is fair and the insurance company is trying to cheat you.

Dave

Tiger

This is just a negotiating tactic, go on the offensive. Be sure to invoice the homeowner the interest of your contract. I invoice like the utilities. $10,000 before Jan 3, 2008/$10,150 AFTER JAN 3, 2008. Otherwise the insurance company will be glad to use you as their interest-free banker. It also adds some time urgency to the homeowner-involvement.

Talk to the homeowner. The insurance company is putting you down as the overcharging contractor. Say something like, "I think it's a crime that you pay your hard-earned dollars for insurance premiums and they put you through all this stress when you file a claim. I'm not charging you any more than my last client or my next one. They need to pay this now."

Dave

Ed the Roofer

Tiger,

I already have informed the home owners that this tactic may have to be put in place and they are 100 % behind me, even though it means a lien.

Actually, I informed them the "Intent To Lien" would be done first.

I think it is a disgrace that the insurance companies take advantage of people like this as their regular way of doing business.

I also am going to be speaking with my attormey next week for advice on some of their tactics being bot, "Economic Interference With A Contract" and "Tortuous Inteterference With A Contract" and want to seek advice on if this may be a potential Class Actioniable Violation.

I have already been doing my case study research to develop the ground work foer such a claim and I think it is viable. Now, all I need is an attorney with the kahoneys large enough to want to slay the beast.

Ed

neolitic

Ed-
Just for clarification here;
Your contract is with the HO, not the carrier?
You're just trying to be the nice guy here,right?

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