Hiring Trend...

2ndGen

I've noticed here in the New York area that those looking to hire Carpenters want guys who do everything.

The ads I've seen lately look for Carpenters that can do everything within Carpentry and be tilers and do electrical work and do plumbing work and and and...

I'm sure there are prudent economical reasons for this, but I'll bet a million dollars (that I don't have) that most of the guys they get responding misprepresent what they can do just to get the job.

The upside to all this shoddy construction going on now is that it allows those that do great work to be distinguished from the status quo. I've seen companies charge 40 Grand to install a kitchen that cost them 5 thousand in stock. They knock the job out in 2 weeks. Then, the kitchen falls apart.

I can't wait to get "good enough" that I can go out on my own. I'd love to wipe the industry clean of these companies that rape customers. I'm all for making good money and in the end...after all, what's a great kitchen worth? Priceless.

But I just hate the fact that there are so many companies overcharging and producing horrible work that like a mail order bride just look good from afar. Once you live with it, then all it's quarks come out.

Just ranting.

Jason Whipple

I think your prospective from the field is a little off. You see the hours in the Field and have a rough idea of the cost of materials. Before you go out on your own, you better sharpen up that pencil.

First, have you ever tried to sell a kitchen remodel? (no) If you did you would have some idea of how long it takes just to get the H/O to decided on about 1000 options.

Second, Once they do make there minds up a very detailed contract needs to be written (this isn't going to be one of those fill in the blank things). Once that is done then it's on to the ordering, most likely through 2-3 suppliers. Then scheduling deliveries and work days.

Third, Once you get the materials in you now have responsibility of keeping everything in new condition during construction. When "billy-bob" scratches the heck out of a new cabinet because he left his over stuffed tool belt on while moving things around, you may just be buying a new one. When there's a problem with one of the new appliances someone has to take there time to work with the supplier to get another one on the way.

I've never seen a 40k kitchen that cost 5k. You can't even by the appliances for that! You'd be lucky if you find stock cabinets for that much. Even in a small Kitchen.

__________________
Jason E Whipple, General Manager
Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio
Facebook | Twitter

2ndGen

Just goes to prove my point more...that I've seen contractors who sell crap for much more than it's worth.

And this is New York City...a 40 square foot kitchen (8' X 5') could easily cost you 30 Grand "at least" with the cheapest stock.

You're right though...you've "never seen", but I have.

As for me sharpening up my pencil...by 19, I had my own business, by 22, I had two full time crews underneath me. So I think I have "some" idea of how to price out a job in New York City (besides the fact that I've spent the last couple of years working in the field in this specific area).

Now, I'd never dare to assume what the market is like where you're from.

Have you done any work in NYC lately?

You need a couple of thousand just to grease the doorman and the super.



Matter of fact, I just renovated a studio apartment that was about 300 sq ft.

Time to complete (including painting, general cleaning, flooring, lighting fixtures, small kitchen/stove. IKEA cabinets that cost about $500. "total")...about a week and a half tops.

Job Cost: $7,000. (labor and material)

Charged: $27,000.

And that was in a New Jersey "suburb" of NYC.

SelfContract

In that case, I think I 'll move to NY soon. I just want to be a rip-off conman, be a rich millionair soon. So easy to make money that way and be rich soon! With 12 small kitchens per year, I can afford to live in that expensive apartment $5000/mo. too.

Welcome to reality. Reality Sucks!

2ndGen

Don't forget Workman's Comp, Insurance, Parking Headaches...that's why there are generally two types of companies here. The big guys and the little guys. Not too many in-betweeners.

Even the little guys make money.

I'm counting on all those conmen.

When I set up shop, I'm hoping that my name will be the selling point, where people will look past price and just want a great job done. I definately won't be the fastest guy in and out and I won't work on a strictly profit oriented mindset.

There's one outfit here that did about 13 million last year. They just started 6years ago. There are some companies that never break 6 figures that have been in the market for 20 years.

Me? I just want to earn a good living doing what I love and I want to do it honestly. My personal convictions have to be met in my manner of earning a living.

Which births the question...what's "fair" to charge?

Is a 50% profit unfair if you give the customer exactly what they want and if they are happy and if you do a job that exceeds your guarentees?

And hey, if they have the money and they want to pay to make sure that it's right done the first time, doesn't that make sense?

If I had a new $60,0000. F450 KingRanch, I wouldn't take it to a 10 minute quick lube joint to have it's maintenance done. I'd take it to the dealer.

Jason Whipple

Well, your right. I have never done work in NYC. But, in one post you say you will put an end to "overcharging" and in the next you explain how expensive things are in NYC. There's contradiction in your own words from where I sit. Not only that but your break down of the remodel prices do not reflect ANY time for sales, set up, deliveries, or greasing up the door man as you put it.

Not saying you couldn't be competitive, just saying that there is a common missperception in the Field that these jobs come together all by themselves and with no risk. It's a lesson every single business owner learns one way or another. Some clients have it all together and some don't. Some jobs go easy and some don't. By sharpening up your pencil, I mean don't forget about all that time it takes to sell, design, and set up. Then put your labor and materials in, then put in your risk factor, then put your business expences in, and finally some proffit. Once you figure out the real cost of doing business you may find out those prices arn't so far off.

__________________
Jason E Whipple, General Manager
Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio
Facebook | Twitter

Mike Finley

SO why don't you grab the world by the tail and start renovating kitchens in NYC for $5000 in materials and charge $5500.00 for the total job?

I love how employees think somebody is ripping somebody off if they charge a customer $65 an hour and pay the employee $20 an hour. Those are the same employees that go out on their own and don't have insurance, don't pull permits, get pulled over for expired plates on their truck...

wink

i would like to know were you get your cabinets, friday we put in 11,000 dollars worth in a u shaped kitchen, that's without markup and no counters. i fail to see your 5,000 in materials, for a whole kitchen, maybe suppliers in the big city are cheaper by the way plumbers and electricians must really be cheap there

Jason Whipple

Yah, they get a couple of delivery tickets in there hand and think they got it all figured out!

__________________
Jason E Whipple, General Manager
Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio
Facebook | Twitter

2ndGen

[QUOTE=Jason W;354255]

Seemingly, but I believe that one overcharges when one does poor work. If one does great work and the customer is satisfied, then who determines the value of the successful exchange of services for compensation? I'd say that if one charges a million dollars to install a lightbulb and the customer is happy, more power to him.

Experience is a great lubrication for efficiency. For example, that studio remodel I mentioned? We turned it around in a week. We went in, looked at what needed to be done, drew up what we needed and took into account what the market would bear. We actually saved the customer thousands. He was happy and so was the real estate agent with our work.

I'm a master at roofing. I could see a job and in 60 seconds price it and never be wrong anymore. Again, I like you have over 2 1/2 decades of time put in.

It just is what it is.

Friend, I have a million dollar education. I figure that's what I gave up had I not gone into business for myself. It's been a struggle, but most bootstrap businesses are not successful in the first generation...it's the second generation of that business where the business explodes into a "20 year in the making/overnight success".

If I had just stayed with my father's boss, I would've been living like my cousin who stayed there. Nice steady paycheck, 1/2 a million liquod in the bank, no headaches, off by 4:30PM.

But I am a natural born entrepreneur. I "had to" (no pun intended) hang out my own shingle. I made a lot and lost alot. But I will never starve and I will never earn below the highest salary of a full time employee.

LOL!

I learned that the hard way in my early 20's when I'd do a job, make $1,200. bucks. I was leaving my house at 6 in the morning and coming home at 9 at night and I thought I made $1,200. bucks in a week! Whoopee!

Then I ran the hours (manhours).

Turned out, I really did that job in just under 2 weeks time when I figured in that while I worked "on" the roof 8-9 hours a day, everything I did before and after I got to the site was job related.

Again, today, I'm a different creature. Like bowling pins, I line them up, sight them and knock them down. And, I make sure that my working after 4 is "my" option (because I want to, not because I have to).

It's taken me the last 10 years to introduce "balance" in my life.

For 20 years, I don't remember what a Saturday or Sunday was. Holidays would catch up on me without my even knowing. Day's off? What was that? That was for me a good time to catch a customer who owed me money home!



But this time? I have the benefit of hindsight and experience. This time, I know what to focus on and how to avoid the traps that the business experiences. I have to swallow my ego and extinguish my pride and admit that I made a lot of mistakes. Some where innocent, other's purely dumb on my part.

The goal now? Become "great"; Great in the sense of doing every job as close to perfect as possible.

2ndGen

In the process. Just getting my Workman's Comp up (kiler here in NY), upgrading my current 2 Mill$ policy and I'm prepping for work in The City. It's not a market one runs into, but strolls into. The best way to procure work is by hooking up with a successful Architect. Then, one doesn't have to market themselves (saves a lot on advertising).

I don't mind people making great money, I just have this overwhelming hatred for companies that pretend to be the "be all and end all" to the biz and who proclaim their quality to be the best while doing substandard work.

I've worked for some co's like that.

I always love it when I get a job where I bid higher than most and especially when I know that I was competing against one of the big boys that do crap work. I feel that both I and the customer win.

2ndGen

IKEA.

And if the homeowner is the GC on a job,
no licensed plumber is needed.
The homeowner can do the work.
As long as it passes inspection by the municipal authority, it's ok.
(Uhum...the homeowner can "say" he does the work).

It's all relative when it comes to pricing.

There are McDonald's where the starting salary is about $18. an hour (I heard this is the case in boomtowns out west and in Canada or in Alaska).

In Arizona, day laborers will work 10 hour days for $40./day.

In New York, they want $80.+lunch+ride home

Again, it's all relative.

wink

sorry friend you lost me on the<uhum the home owner can say he did the work> i almost thought you were a proffesional

2ndGen

Well, "not" a professional "plumber", but here, to get a plumber to come in and to simply connect an existing pipe to a retrofit sink, they want $1,000.00.

So, a homeowner is allowed to do that for themselves.

My partner hooked up the sink and it passed inspection.

Good enough for the authorities, good enough for the job.

Does every plumber call in a licensed roofer to flash in a vent pipe through the roof?

Even though they don't carry roofer's insurance, they still go up and flash in their own vent pipes and why not?

Again, so long as it's done right.



I guess you've never done work that required a permit without the permit?

Or work that was outside of the scope of your license?