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Help With French Door Install!

 
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Old 12-19-2017, 05:19 PM   #1
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Help With French Door Install!


I have a water issue with a new Marvin door, new construction. This door is somehow letting water in the sill. I've already swapped it with a new door they sent me, and it is installed EXACTLY as the instructions say, twice now. I have the housewrap wrapped in, 3M flashing tape, sill flashing, silicone, everything. I'm truly at a loss with this. I'm in MN, so if there is even melting snow on the threshold it lets water in. Even the factory techs are stumped. Has anybody had experience with this? It is NOT leaking around the seamless siding, and it is NOT following the sill back into the house. This door has the integrated drain as well. Any ideas or comments appreciated.
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:10 AM   #2
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


It come from who know where in roof. It just exit there. Was called countless times to see similar situation like that even I'm not roofer. Usually I'm capable to figure out in 5 minutes where it come from. You do not have much experience in trade seem to me.

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Old 12-21-2017, 02:01 AM   #3
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


Either that, or it is coming from under the threshold. Using sticky flash, then just caulking it, you have a 50/50 chance it will leak. I am sure most of us have done and still do it that way on occasion, but a metal flashing pan is better. If no pan, it needs to be sealed with a sh!t ton of real sealant. Lexel, or geocel; something of that nature, not Alex plus.

Also, it maybe coming in at the corners if you didn't put the corner shim/foams in, and also you may need to caulk the threshold to the jamb, as they can develop a gap in shipping. Also, is it flashed on top?

Without seeing it in person, it is hard to be certain.

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Old 12-21-2017, 03:37 AM   #4
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


As far as experience, I've been at this for 20 years, but thanks anyway for the quick jab.
As stated, the door was installed EXACTLY to instructions specified. It states to use flex in the sill and partially up the jamb, with sealant on top of that. The factory tech has been there twice, he flat out told me it's as good or better of an install that he's seen. This is on the gable, it's not coming from the roof.
The point is that I'm curious about the integrated drain in the threshold. That has to be the source of the leak, so has anyone ever had problems with that.
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Old 12-21-2017, 03:56 AM   #5
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


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Originally Posted by jimbo225 View Post

This is on the gable, it's not coming from the roof.


The point is that I'm curious about the integrated drain in the threshold. That has to be the source of the leak, so has anyone ever had problems with that.

So, what does your gut say? That somehow wind is blowing it through the drain?

Those pictures are clear, but simply don't give any indication or weather or conditions.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:04 AM   #6
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


If it wasn't so cold, I'd say get a hose out and start spraying only select areas, one at a time.

I would lean to: water leaking in through top and dripping down the jamb leg until it pools at floor. Although with all the spray foam, not too likely.

Corner seal missing and no caulk at jamb leg/sill connection.

"Self draining sill" that never drain, especially if water is in there and it freezes and blocks the weep hole.
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Old 12-21-2017, 07:00 AM   #7
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


Pans need to be rolled up on the sides and rear and drain to daylight...they should be pitched as well...the sides need to be tucked under the WRB. 20 years in and you don't roll your pans?

You should have learned that lesson long ago. A manufacturer has never specified how I do my pans...I do.

You asked the question, you got the answer...
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Old 12-21-2017, 07:05 AM   #8
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


You gotta use either a sill pan or, if you have room, use a piece of cedar lap siding under the flex flashing. That’s what I use on all my windows and doors. Adds about 2 minutes to the install time. Doors need an extra half inch ro height.
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Old 12-21-2017, 07:57 AM   #9
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


Mark my word. It is from above. From siding, or roof or whatsoever is above doors. I installed to several hundred of marvin exterior doors and windows, they do not leak. Like first would spot that it is to much weather to be from seal leaking and even from bad waterproofing just above door. It is relatively big leak.
Check first photo again. Man it is big leak. It have nothing to do with door.
No way it is from seal. And especially this time of year when it was barely any snow. And seem to me at floors are marks of old leaking.

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Old 12-21-2017, 08:01 AM   #10
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


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Originally Posted by TimNJ View Post
I would lean to: water leaking in through top and dripping down the jamb leg until it pools at floor. Although with all the spray foam, not too likely.
I've seen this too on a gable end with no protection from the eaves. Previous 3 guys saw water at the bottom and assumed that was where it was getting in. They sealed the crap out of the bottom of the door which only served to make a very effective dam trapping the water which then soaked and rotted the framing.

Jamsill pans are my go to sill pans for doors and windows. I order direct from them.
http://jamsill.com/
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Old 12-21-2017, 08:06 AM   #11
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


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I've seen this too on a gable end with no protection from the eaves. Previous 3 guys saw water at the bottom and assumed that was where it was getting in. They sealed the crap out of the bottom of the door which only served to make a very effective dam trapping the water which then soaked and rotted the framing.

Jamsill pans are my go to sill pans for doors and windows. I order direct from them.
http://jamsill.com/
I had probably the freakiest leak on a slider, it had a hairline crack in the corner, not much water would make it to the floor but it wicked into the wood jamb. 99.99999999999% sure my drywall hanger cracked it. The guy who bought the house said his kid probably jumping up and down on it cracked it. I didn’t argue.
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Old 12-21-2017, 08:21 AM   #12
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


I appreciate all feedback! It's 5 degrees here. I have taken this door out, cleaned the foam away, and checked the sill for any damage. It's bone dry above. It hasn't rained. Even if it had its tyvek, z flashed, 3m tape applied, and siliconed around the fin. Just melting snow on the threshold and somehow water comes in. If I take a water bottle and spray it directly into the inlet, it slowly comes from under the door and then the OSB starts to wick it. It's a small drip but looks huge after the wicking. Wether it's a pan sill or a flex sill, this water is still present no matter what, the floor sill prep is not the issue. I'm going with hairline crack somewhere. Thanks again!
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Old 12-21-2017, 09:46 AM   #13
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo225 View Post
I appreciate all feedback! It's 5 degrees here. I have taken this door out, cleaned the foam away, and checked the sill for any damage. It's bone dry above. It hasn't rained. Even if it had its tyvek, z flashed, 3m tape applied, and siliconed around the fin. Just melting snow on the threshold and somehow water comes in. If I take a water bottle and spray it directly into the inlet, it slowly comes from under the door and then the OSB starts to wick it. It's a small drip but looks huge after the wicking. Wether it's a pan sill or a flex sill, this water is still present no matter what, the floor sill prep is not the issue. I'm going with hairline crack somewhere. Thanks again!
One fact you can make bank on: If there were any way, any POSSIBLE way in hell the factory guys could have blamed even part of the problem on you - they already would have.

So throw the extra labor bill on the table and as you way away say give me a call when you guys figure this one out.
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Old 12-21-2017, 11:49 AM   #14
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


Is it condensation?
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:56 PM   #15
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


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Is it condensation?
Interesting.
I wonder how dry the inside of the aluminum extrusion on those clad frames is?

Or how tight is the aluminum joint where head and leg meet.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:11 PM   #16
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


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Originally Posted by jimbo225 View Post
I appreciate all feedback! It's 5 degrees here. I have taken this door out, cleaned the foam away, and checked the sill for any damage. It's bone dry above. It hasn't rained. Even if it had its tyvek, z flashed, 3m tape applied, and siliconed around the fin. Just melting snow on the threshold and somehow water comes in. If I take a water bottle and spray it directly into the inlet, it slowly comes from under the door and then the OSB starts to wick it. It's a small drip but looks huge after the wicking. Wether it's a pan sill or a flex sill, this water is still present no matter what, the floor sill prep is not the issue. I'm going with hairline crack somewhere. Thanks again!
It took me a while to find the crack. I had to push and pull on the frame to find it. I can’t remember why I even thought to do that, never could have imagined the leak was caused by a crack until I saw the crack. I cut out the jamb and had the ho watch it for days. No leaks. Then I told him to shove a paper towel tight against the crack for a while. Next time it rained the paper towel got soaked. This was in the fall so it was raining pretty much every day.
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Old 12-21-2017, 08:55 PM   #17
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


If the source of the leak is up for that much of a debate, get a thermal camera set up next time it rains or snows.

Inswinging french doors are a big no no for most builders here. They are almost always a problem for the builder/supplier/installer.

This is especially true when there is no overhang, or it is on the windward side.

Seems like the only time I get invited on inswing french doors is after the builder has problems with them.

If you're not doing your own metal sill pan, then go with Jamsill, as mentioned before. Get rid of that stupid flexwrap. Wrong place to be using that.

I'm willing to bet the sill pan is the large part of your problem.
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Old 12-22-2017, 03:32 PM   #18
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


The exterior door looks like it terminated against stone. It's not caulked. That would help. It appears as if you don't have casing, that compounded the problem.

Next time you look at flex wrap. You will see that the peel off tape, is divided into sections. It's not even, the 1 inch peel is design not to be pulled off when you flash, it's designed so you can make a pan out of flex wrap.

Don't pull off the 1 inch film. Take off the larger film. Install the flashing tape. When you have it in place, you have 2 options. Leave the film on the flex wrap, and curl it up, when the floors are installed. Or make a pan by folding that 1 inch strip to its self. Giving you a half inch lip.

In both cases you will need to temporarily support the flashing tape in a vertical position with a temporary support.

Last edited by Stilla; 12-22-2017 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 12-22-2017, 04:11 PM   #19
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


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The exterior door looks like it terminated against stone. It's not caulked. That would help. It appears as if you don't have casing, that compounded the problem.

Next time you look at flex wrap. You will see that the peel off tape, is divided into sections. It's not even, the 1 inch peel is design not to be pulled off when you flash, it's designed so you can make a pan out of flex wrap.

Don't pull off the 1 inch film. Take off the larger film. Install the flashing tape. When you have it in place, you have 2 options. Leave the film on the flex wrap, and curl it up, when the floors are installed. Or make a pan by folding that 1 inch strip to its self. Giving you a half inch lip.
I am with you on the siding. What kind of siding is that, and why is it hanging beyond the door? Was the door ordered with the correct jamb size?
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Old 12-22-2017, 10:19 PM   #20
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Re: Help With French Door Install!


Pictures from a bit farther out might help as well. Is there exterior trim on there?

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