No Wonder I'm Scared Of The Handyman's Of The World

Mike Finley

All I can say is I'd have to assume you have never seen the work of a master tile setter.

We do a tremendous amount of tile work. I know a very large number of tile setters in our area. 99.99% of them think they are awesome tile setters. The reality is the vast majority of them are not.

There is a huge difference in the skill level it takes to install a job that has $30.00 of ceramic tile laid block style on a concrete floor, and a job that has $9,000 worth of travertine, glass and granite tile going into a steam shower. There are an almost endless supply of tile setters who could do the ceramic job and only a handful that could do the latter job.

Explaining this is like trying to explain to a virgin what sex is like or explain to a non-drinker the difference between a 40 ounzer and a 20 year old scotch is. You either have a frame of reference and there is no explanation required or you have no frame of reference and no amount of explaining will adequately make you understand.

To take any trade whether it's framing, decking, trim, tile, painting or whatever and try to discount the differences in quality levels and skills required just because it is framing, decking, trim, tile, painting or whatever is just not realistic to me.

Frankly I'd have to see it to believe it. You might be one of the one in a million who is actually the 2nd coming of Michelangelo, but the odds are against it. I've heard it a million times how great somebody is and the problem is they've never had to actually measure themselves against a proper measuring stick.

Case in point, customers are not a proper measuring stick against which to judge quality. Customers do not know what true quality is. Quality is measured against your peers, not an untrained customer. A huge red flag to me is anybody who uses their customers to judge the quality of their own work.

Also again the level of work needs to be part of the equation. Installing paint grade anderson casing around a door and having a customer say "nice, that's better then I could do" and installing a custom wood box ceiling like this are two different things.

J F

That pic's a little small finley, can you blow it up some

J F

now it's back to normal size...

BCConstruction

I understand where your coming from as we had been through many a tile installer before we found a guy who was fast/Good quality/fair price. There's no doubt that he could tile well and also fast but his skills were becomeing too expensive for us for what he was doing. So this is why i got into the tiling and never had a problem doing all the stuff we had asked our tile installer to do. But what my post was getting at is a lot of people who are good with their hands can Tile,Paint,Trim,Deck,Drywall and so on and thats why there's so many people who think they can be handymen but as soon as it come to Plumbing,HVAC and Electrics they dont know where to start. Hence the prices they charge.

Mike Finley

With all do respect. That pretty much says it all for me.

Especially when I connect the dots to other posts by you about Fein Tools being over priced... and I believe you also said something in regard to Schluter Systems and Kerdi products being over priced as well.

I think a lot of people think they can paint, tile, trim etc... by just doing it and learning by trial and error, as long as they have customers who don't know any better, as long as they never have to have their work judged and scrutinized by real experts in those fields, and as long as they make their bread and butter from the bottom 10% of difficulty in those fields. There is plenty of hiding room in construction for somebody to hide for years and keep convincing themselves how great they are until they finally meet somebody who is the real deal.

But when we are talking about true craftsmen, the truly skilled, the road to that is apprenticeship. It always has been.

Now with Contractortalk of course there is no need for that anymore.

Mike Finley

By the way here are two great examples of a guy who learned by doing and of course, he thinks he is a great tradesman. The majority of us know better.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/doe...eed-gfi-64143/

http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/how...-ground-63939/

BCConstruction

Mike i think your a little confused and you need to stop twisting what I'm saying. For one i don't buy anything cheap and if the job calls for it i buy it no matter what the cost. I just have systems i would rather be using that maybe cheaper or may not. I didn't say that Fein tools were over priced btu for what i need it was. I said that for what i needed the tools for i would have rather had the bosch system which was cheaper and was cordless and the Fein was just OTT for what i needed.

But back to the original post. The thread was about Handymen and some people i know who think of there self as "handymen" that was what my post was about. There's many of them about because trades like i mentioned are easy to jump into. Unlike plumbing and electrics. I'm not saying that they have to be the best craftsman on this earth because they don't. I'm also not saying I'm the best at what i do. It seems to me that you don't think anyone can be good at something unless it has been their trade for their lifetime or an apprentice for many years. I'm sure it's the case for many people but it's not the case for everyone.

BCConstruction

This is exactly what im talking about. Clearly the bloke aint got a clue and if it was a tiling job, Dry wall or any of the easier jobs he wouldnt even post on here and ask and prob make a mess of the job. But when it comes to Electrics, Hvac, Plumbing and so on people aint to keen to jump in and just bodge it. It requires a higher skill level and even something as simple as he is asking can be a nightmere if you dont know what ya doing.

ChrWright

This thread is useless without pics. I'm dying to know the frame of reference for coming out "perfect". Watching a master at work can make any trade look deceivingly simple, and perhaps that's where your POV comes from.

But you can't honestly believe what's written above:

Can use a tape + Cut straight = "Good & don't need to apprentice"

Can't use a tape + Can't cut straight = "Bad & need to apprentice"


Is that what it all boils down to?

That sounds like the HGTV model for how to build things.

__________________

Christopher Wright, CR: President @ WrightWorks, LLC/President @ Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50
www.WrightWorks.net - Facebook - Twitter - Carmel Remodeling
Indianapolis Kitchen Remodeling Contractor - You Can Get There From Here

BCConstruction

Basically yes that all it does come down too. I'm sad to say that i have to work with a hack at times and it's dam hard work because he is so willing to do the job the easiest way to cut corners and not care at all what it looks like. Buy the end of the day his work gets better as i have shown him the correct ways to do stuff. But give him another day of working on his own and he falls back to his bodge work. He cant even use a tape measure. I on the other hand have zero problem with picking something up without help. Most of all these trades just require some common sense and Patience, which most hacks ain't got no matter if they get shown how to do it or not.

Below is all you need to be good at every trade

bwalley

I think Professional Handyman is an oxymoron, kind of like Jumbo Shrimp.

480sparky

"Women's Logic", "Military Intelligence", and "Sanitary Landfull".

__________________
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ChrWright

This is why it matters so little when you hear someone say, "I've been doing this for 20 years."

There's a difference between having 20 years of experience and having 1 year of experience--20 times. Anyone who's been around construction any length of time can relate to that.

The value of an apprenticeship goes beyond just learning how to measure and cut. It's just as important to know WHY we do things a certain way as it is to know HOW to do it.

The apprentice is shown the "WHY", while the self-taught learns only by trial, error, and mistake. I don't discount the factor of natural aptitude. But while the self-taught might reach a level of skill eventually--he's going to take a lot longer to get there, and will build some ugly sh** in the process (or things which don't stand the tests of use and time).

__________________

Christopher Wright, CR: President @ WrightWorks, LLC/President @ Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50
www.WrightWorks.net - Facebook - Twitter - Carmel Remodeling
Indianapolis Kitchen Remodeling Contractor - You Can Get There From Here

bwalley

My mother was in the prison ministry when I was younger, a guy Ray was a painter (unlicensed) after he got out of prison, he claimed to have had 30 some odd years of experience, yet was in prison most of his adult life, I asked him how he could claim 30+ years of experience, he said when he was a teenager, he helped paint his house, so he had more than 30 years experience.

My 8 year old daughter has been going on jobsites with me for at least 3 years, so when she is 20, she can say she has 15 years experience.

This guy self smarted himself, he also smokes weed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB0u9crejUw

BCConstruction

No doubt that with a good teacher you will learn quickly and the skills that makes the difference. As long as you get a good teacher that is. I have 5 friends in the UK who were all plumbers. I knew more about heating systems, Bathroom fitting and solar heating in the first year than they knew after 6 years. I choose to be a sparky when i left school then work dried up and a family friend took me on as an apprentice. After the first day he took me on full time and was leaving me on jobs after just 3-4 months. This was all because of how good my boss was at his job. He was maybe the best plumber in the southeast of England at the time. But then their was my mates. They knew their stuff but many a time i would end up helping them problem trace and fix issues they couldn't and there quality of work couldnt touch mine. Thats why i think Plumbing, Electrical and HVAC is a job you have to do apprenticeship for no matter what. They are def not trades you can teach your self.

Mike Finley

Why?

Plumber - needs apprenticeship. Painter doesn't? You'll be a pro painter, top of your field, 2nd to none without an apprenticeship, but not as a plumber?

Hmm.. I can sweat copper pipe, install a drain, run DWV, I must know everything there is to know about being a plumber.

This line of reasoning you have is ridiculous.

As I've said, you obviously have never actually met a true craftsman in any field or you'd never say such ridiculous things.

Everybody thinks they can paint. I'll be the first to tell you a professional painter's work next to somebody who thinks they can paint is like night and day.

But if all you are used to is hacked up **** that your buddy keeps doing, I understand why you have no idea what we are talking about.

Walk into some Podunk church, then walk into the Sistine Chapel can you see any differences, would you know the difference? Cause for whatever reason you think the world of construction is all Podunk churches.

jtpro

“intelligent architect”, ”lucid PGD”

BCConstruction

Mike i don't think you understand what I'm saying. Any joe bloggs can mask off a wall/window and paint. I seen it too many times to count and thats one reason i never hire painters for even my own home. Any joe bloggs can lay tile and flooring and get buy but when you get a joe bloggs trying to plumb in a shower which is a pretty straight forward job and they over heat the fittings and have bad joints, Burn down a house because they ain't use a heat mat or not put a pressure release valve on a hot water cylinder or if they worked on a gas line and used the wrong type of valve on a gas line you can take peoples lives by making small silly mistakes. The same goes for electrical work. This is why any joe bloggs will work on trim/deck/paint/tile and so on. All Plumbers and electricians have a min amount of stuff they must know and this is the reason for the strict codes and training. Anyone can walk into a house and do either in know but i know for a fact that a hack will be able to paint/tile/trim and so on better than he can wire a house or plumb a boiler.

ChrWright

For some of us "getting by" isn't enough.

__________________

Christopher Wright, CR: President @ WrightWorks, LLC/President @ Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50
www.WrightWorks.net - Facebook - Twitter - Carmel Remodeling
Indianapolis Kitchen Remodeling Contractor - You Can Get There From Here

Mike Finley

You seem to want to have it both ways.

You want to compare cost of entry for a tradesmans in two different trades by comparing in the one that you hold no regard to the entry level skills and the higher level skills of the other.

Taping off a window vs wire a house.

Taping off a window is an entry level skill to painting.

Wiring a house is not an entry level skill to electrical.

Taping off a window is compared to correctly installing wire nuts.

Painting a custom 6000 square foot home with cathedral ceilings, multiple shades, protections, wood work etc... is compared to wiring a house.

You can't have it both ways in your comparisions and this is why your statements that you keep making make no sense.