Mike Holmes And Screws

 
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:16 PM   #1
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Mike Holmes And Screws


I know a lot of guys complain about screws in construction. I also recognize that not all areas consider them to be up to code.

I would like to point out though that up here they are for some applications. Basement framing for one. Yes they are slower than a framing nailer. I agree with that 100%. However if he wants to use them its his show for sure. I won't argue with him.

As for the upper floors of a house I wouldn't use them but there are screws that are rated for framing applications. We have construction framing grade screws up here that meet code conditions for shear strength. HD sells them as well as other fastener sales places.

Even strong tie makes screws for their metal fasteners that are engineered for use with their metal tie members.

I think the fastener systems we use are developing and this is a trend that may get to the point of being superior to nails at some point both for shear and load strength. I know I have seen videos on line tha tshow some guy tapping on drywall screws construction screws and 16 penny nails (What is that anyway 6") and the drywall and construction screws snap off pretty fast while the nail stand up to the test. I ask this. When does a nail or screw ever withstand that amount of movement in a wall assembly. Ok with the exception of California where they have to withstand earth quakes. I'm not saying screws can stand up to every situation but hey try pulling one of these out with your claw hammer and you will break your wrist. I have tried.

We can poo poo it all we like but is it worth taking a look into and see if we are missing the boat somewhere along the way? I think it is. At least keeping informed about the new technology in this field might be worth while. You never know we may find that screws at some point may make hurricane tied on roof trusses a thing of the past.

Can we make this thread a fastener resource so we can all search out new info on them and post it here for all to see? Never know with the brain trust that is here we could find some very interesting things out. Maybe even change the way we frame for the better. Even if that is a few years off you never know what we may find out.

I know that i am swearing here but here are the framing screws I believe Mr. Holmes uses.

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber

Sorry I don't know how to make a small URL. Maybe a mod could help me out with this?

Last edited by Greg from K/W; 03-16-2010 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Add information.
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:22 PM   #2
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


www.tinyurl.com is where I do it Greg.

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Old 03-16-2010, 04:26 PM   #3
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Cool thanks Dennis.
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:28 PM   #4
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Screws are great for holding two pieces "together" but are brittle when a shear load (perpendicular to the shaft) is applied.

Simple test.

1. Embed a .131 nail and a similar AWG screw into a beam.
2. Take your hammer out and strike them perpendicularly.

The nail bends...The screw snaps. It's as simple as that. The way a nail is made versus a screw makes them useful for different tasks. I rarely frame something that needs to be held "together". Mostly I need to ensure that the wood members need to be held in a location.

Like a plate on top of a stud.
I don't need to keep it tight in the vertical plane...gravity does that.
I just need to make sure that the stud can't move laterally.

I use trim screws on Azek fascia and other items that I never want to "pull" apart. But for shear....would you build a wooden scaffold using screws...and feel safe? Not me.
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:39 PM   #5
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


The hammer strike test is not a fair comparison Wallmax. Like i said when does a fastener ever come under that stress in a wall assembly? Its not a real life test of a fastener. Now screw 2 members together with screws and try to pull them apart. That would be a real life test of them. Banging on one with a hammer from the side no way. Sure it might fail if you taking tyhe wall aprt and smacking the 2 X 4's with a hammer but even that is not a fair comparison. I am not saying screws will replace nails but should we not keep the camparison of load and shear realistic?

Its like taking 2 different cars to test drive and draining the oil ouit of one. Going back and saying the one with the blown motor is crap.
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:48 PM   #6
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Your talking about a test like this?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/967794...ruction_screw/

I say the test is crap. Even a nail will not under go that amount of stress under the conditions of a fully built wall basement or other wise. Try pulling out that construction screw now. See how well you do compared to a nail.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:02 PM   #7
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Mikey uses those screws for everything. Including outdoor decks in saltwater environments, despite them being classified for interior use with a big NO ACQ stamp on the box. That's about as negligent as you can get.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:08 PM   #8
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


LOL ok thats fine but this isn't about picking him apart its about finding out better ways of doing things ok?
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:13 PM   #9
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


In my opinion, screws are not necessary during framing unless specified by an engineer. Wallmax is absolutely correct in his shear comparisons too.
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Old 03-16-2010, 05:20 PM   #10
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Shear ratings requirements are all over inside the IBC 2006 - 2009.

Most screws are NOT shear rated.

Now if you want to use Simpson SDS screws - I'm all for it. They are shear rated.

Why would you make a distinction between the basement use of screws but not to be used in the upper floors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg from K/W View Post
I would like to point out though that up here they are for some applications. Basement framing for one. As for the upper floors of a house I wouldn't use them but there are screws that are rated for framing applications.
If they are rated for shear in Canada...use them.

I am just saying that in the US where I practice framing, screws are specified for precise applications. When so ordered to use screws, i do. But I don't look to find more ways to use screws.

I, however, ALWAYS use HDG nails...either 3 1/4" x .131 or .148. My HDG (hot-dipped galvanized) nails hold better than even screws. When I have to "take apart" something (fix a whoops) the HDG nails end up staying embedded and the head pulls through the top piece of lumber. It sucks to demo behind me.

I am not opposed to the use of screws...I am just opposed to the claim that they are "better".

Like I said above - they have different benefits and applications. Use what is best and appropriate for the resultant task.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:06 PM   #11
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg from K/W View Post
Your talking about a test like this?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/967794...ruction_screw/

I say the test is crap.
I agree, but not for the reasons you're putting forth. Bending a fastener demonstrates its ductility (or lack of it), not its shear strength.

But even if you have screws with shear strength equal to nails, there is absolutely no comparison when it comes to production. Nails are the clear winner in that department--no screwgun can come close to the speed of a nailgun or even three whacks with a framing hammer.

Having said all that, I'll confess to being a pretty screwy guy myself.

In remodeling, you have endless opportunities to knock Mrs. HO's fine china off its hanger on the other side of the wall when whaling away with your hammer. I find that happens a lot less often when I use screws.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:08 PM   #12
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Why would someone want to use screws in place of nails when it comes to framing?A nail gun is WAY faster than using screws.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:24 PM   #13
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


I use paslode air nails.

I don't know the specs of them, They are the 3 1/4" ones with offset head with orange glue.


As far as I'm concerned, those nails are superior to screws in every way.


If I take 2 2x4's and nail them together, if I need to separate them the nail heads will pull through rather than let the nail withdraw.

I don't see how a screw would be better.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:39 PM   #14
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


GRK's are rated for structural use. I would go broke using them though.
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Old 03-16-2010, 08:03 PM   #15
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


It seems like we are talking about two different things. Hitting and breaking a screw that is halfway out is one thing. How much force it takes to seperate two boards is different. The latter is more what I think of when talking about shear force.
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Old 03-16-2010, 09:06 PM   #16
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Ever think Mike Holmes uses them because DeWalt pays him big bucks to show off their impact drivers? Maby if Pasload or Hitachi ponied up some serious bucks he would use a nail-gun. Ever think it maybe he wants to prevent accidents with the rookies? I don't know just throwing out ideas.

He did use nail guns in a makeover show where they had to build a house in X number of days IIRC.

Screws have less shear load, they are a harder metal and the threading causes weak points.

Screws are harder to pull out.

But the REAL reason we use nails.

Cost + Speed.
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Old 03-16-2010, 10:15 PM   #17
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Mike Holmes + unlimited tv budjet> my jobs + definitive budget
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:07 PM   #18
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Most likely the typical Diy or homeowner feels more comfortable using screws as opposed to a nail gun. Why does a contractor have to watch this show to figure out what fastener to use?

TV improvement shows are geared toward homeowners and target methods and products to appeal to that audience.

HMMM!! lots of houses built with nails which are still structurally sound decades later.
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:10 PM   #19
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


Quote:
Most likely the typical Diy or homeowner feels more comfortable using screws as opposed to a nail gun. Why does a contractor have to watch this show to figure out what fastener to use?
You didn't learn construction from watching TV??
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:17 PM   #20
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Re: Mike Holmes And Screws


I personally believe ole Mike Holmes uses screws because somewhere along the way it entered his little bean head that there is a 'different' or some sort of 'wow' factor in using screws in homeowners minds. I believe somewhere along the way he discovered a homeowner was impressed that he was using screws in something instead of nails and it stuck in his mind and he picked it up as his little trade mark to set him apart as doing something different that could be seen as 'better' to the uninformed but easily impressed amateur.

The only tradesman I have run into doing framing with screws have been handymen, mostly because they were scared of and didn't own nail guns.

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