The Big Three: What Really Happened

Bodger

I don't fully understand what happened to the big three to get them into so much trouble. The current econmic outlook distresses me a lot, but the Big Three about to go belly up bothers me more than anything I think.
I spent time in Detroit when I was a kid in the days when there were very few cars on the road that ween't made in the U.S.A.

As dense as it may make me look, I don't understand how the Big Three got so far sideways that they need government money.
I drive a Ford truck, and have never in my life bought a foreign car. Even though I know there's no such thing as a car made entirely in America anymore. At least my truck was assembled in Kansas City.
Any opinions?

mickeyco

Union now, before, crappy cars at inflated prices, remember those 1980's Lincolns that were Ford Granada's with Lincoln badges, the 1982 Cadillac Cimarron which was a Chevy Citation and not paying attention as the Japanese came in.

It doesn't help either when they don't stand behind their vehicles, I don't buy foreign cars (except a X-19 when I was young), but my girlfriend just bought her first, with my blessing, after getting screwed by Ford, they gave her a BS third party warranty (she asked for the Ford one), so she had to bring it certain dealers. The transmission was crap from the day she bought it, shuddered all the time, she brought in in time after time and was always told they couldn't find anything, about the time the extended warranty was up they replaced the torque converter. A few months out of warranty the trans completely failed, a few thousand dollars later she has a new trans and a new oil leak and the thing is making all types of weird noises, she brings it in they replace the lower A-arms (no way it could be the way they installed the trans), same noise, lighter wallet, a month later one of the coil packs craps out, thousand dollars later she's up and running, the next day another coil pack goes out, they only charge her for the coil this time, how nice. That's not counting all the other recalls. One of the times she brought it in for the trans shudder they changed the fluid for $70 - $100 bucks and it seemed better for a month, later I found a Ford issued TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) referring to the trans problem and they suggested changing the trans fluid gratis for the customer. So that was probably the last Ford she'll ever own, and if she likes the Toyota and the service she'll probably continue to buy Toyota's.

To compete they need to build great vehicles, give good warranties and stand behind their vehicles, and they can't do that with the union raping them and the Government mandating policy to them.


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__________________
Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

Mike Finley

Double wammy. Rising gas prices wacked the crap out of the sales of the money makers - trucks & suvs. Financial crisis wacked the crap out of the rest of sales - everything, cars trucks suvs, people aren't buying big ticket items when they read every day how the world is coming to an end.

Simple - if your customers stopped hiring you for the money makers that you do in your business, how would it effect you? If later your customers stopped calling your for anything how would you do?

Loans aren't a bail out.

The SBA loans federal money to businesses is that a bail out?

What will happen? Most likely Chrysler will merge with somebody. Cerebus owns them and its time for them to get the hell out of the car business.

GM? That's a toss up, they are late to start to fix what ails them. What people don't realize is the $70 an hour union wage we keep hearing about is false, GM negotiated a $53 an hour wage in 2007. GM has legacy costs in the form of benefits. They are victims of people retiring earlier now and living longer. Their retirement model was based on people retiring at 65 and living to 69. That's totally different now.

Ford will be fine, they started fixing themselves in 2006, they have shed 50,000 jobs since then, have shed or are sheding Jaguari, mazda, volvo, aston martin and land rover, focusing on FORD as a it's core business, closed 20 odd plants and refinanced their debt before the financial crisis hit. The money they want from the government they want as a line of credit only to be used if things get worse for them then they have planned.

cleveman

You know it's always a series of mistakes.

I had been drinking, I decided to use a ladder, it was raining ice outside, I set up the ladder on uneven ground, etc.

Let's just say that they failed to turn their paddleboats into trains or their trains into automobiles or their automobiles into the next generation of automobiles. Fuel prices played a role, as did the capital market situation. The recession didn't help. I think the consumers played a role, because there were those who were demanding the old-style cars. How about the government relaxing cafe standards over the years? Who is responsible for the diesel motor never taking hold in this country? Why can't the standards all be synchronized. I mean, why do you need different brakes, lights, glass, emissions, etc. etc. from country to country? Union labor. That is just off the top of my head.

MALCO.New.York

You all are, without me reading the previous posts, WRONG. It is about the advent of and loss of "kickback" Monies due to the application of recent "Alternate Propulsion Technologies".

Why do you think that Exxoff is now NOT in the Retail Petroleum Distribution Services?????? Closing up shop AS WE SPEAK or type.

__________________
Something to One may be Nothing to another!

Ultimate Wisdom---------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

mickeyco

Damn it, I just bought a new Dodge.





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__________________
Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

Mike Finley

Maybe few know it, but the auto industries issues aren't just being felt in the USA. What's going on here in the auto industry and the financial crisis is being mirrored all over the world, basically almost everything that our government has done, from bail outs, to dropping interest rates to loans has been mimicked by foreign governments all over the globe.

The auto industry is so far reaching, you might not have heard, but Sweden is putting up 3.5 billion in loans the the big 3 to help stem any negative consequences in Sweden's economy and Canada has basically offering or will put up another 3 billion in loans to the big 3 for the same reason.

MALCO.New.York

A LARGE portion of Canada's income is from where?????? GM?????

__________________
Something to One may be Nothing to another!

Ultimate Wisdom---------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

mickeyco

A lot of Chrysler's are built there as well, including the Dodge Challenger, that thing should be built in Detroit, Canadian Muscle Car just doesn't sound right, hey.




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__________________
Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

MALCO.New.York

Ahhhh! Take ouff yoo hoser!

__________________
Something to One may be Nothing to another!

Ultimate Wisdom---------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

oldrivers

GM? That's a toss up, they are late to start to fix what ails them. What people don't realize is the $70 an hour union wage we keep hearing about is false, GM negotiated a $53 an hour wage in 2007. GM has legacy costs in the form of benefits. They are victims of people retiring earlier now and living longer. Their retirement model was based on people retiring at 65 and living to 69. That's totally different now.

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hmmmmm im not so sure about that gm also pays double for overtime and double for working sunday shifts, in 2006 the average gm worker put in 315 hours of overtime . well anyways heres more info.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2162.cfm

747

Ford mtr company wages the highest is tool and dye classification which is around 28 hour. What happened our goverment allowing foreign auto manufacturers in this country. The senators opposing the bailout were 8 guys from the south who all had foreign plants in there states. The bottom line is they want to bust up UAW. Gm is in trouble big time. So is chrslyer. Ford is looking good. Actually when people say the foreign guys aren't in trouble that is a lie. There sales are down. Actually Ford is looking good. The F150 is the best selling pickup here in U.S. There Focus beat Toyota in actual numbers sold. Also there Fusion car is looking good. These are number my father gave me earlier when i spoke to him He is a retired Ford mtr stamping plant Chicago heights man. My brother in law works there. I think he makes around well i don't actually know 24-26 hour. Thats not 70. Also at Ford when a guy retires they hire off the street for a less hourly rate then they use to pay. See in that bill that got defeated those senators wanted to mess with retirees benefits and the UAW said no way. If the big three goes down it will send this country into depression. Your not talking 3 million jobs your also talking senior citizens pension. Also all the suppliers. Example the tire people the windshield wiper people the spark plug people the piston people and the list just goes on and on. Bankruptcsy is a joke. Who is going to buy a car from a bankrupt company. These guys who compare it to the airline industry are stuck on stupid. A airline ticket is not a major purchase which will be held onto for years.

747

You think you are ski patrol at the beav.. Your not getting my lift pass brother.

Mike Finley

Slow down... slow it down...

Bodger

I want to buy a new truck in the next 3 months. Right now I have a 2004 Ford F-250. I like Fords, have always bought them, so did my dad, but I'm open to another make nevertheless. I need something in the same range as the F-250.
If I'm shopping smart, who should get my business? Ford? GM?
Who would we think is the least likely to be around in three years to honor warranties or whatever?

oldrivers

I think he makes around well i don't actually know 24-26 hour. Thats not 70.

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your telling me they only make 24-26 an hour and they have all those other benefits ?? uhhhh wrong,

Mike Finley

The whole warranty issue is a smoke screen thrown up by GM to scare washington into giving them the money.

Don't spend any time worrying about warranties not being there.

oldrivers

fact of the matter is crysler sucked crap in the 80s and 90s thinking they could pass off k-cars, dodge chargers, dodge challengers , by making a dodge omni and putting badges on them from the 60s, uhhhhh is this really a dodge charger, challenger ?? looks like an omni to me, well anyways dodge didnt start succeeding until after they started selling better trucks rams, suvs durangos, crawlers whatever, hemis, vipers etc, but since the union workers support democrats who just happen to be against those kind of vehicles they elected senators that put out the fuel caffeae {sp}mandates . its the democrats that are mandating every vehicle get 25 miles per gallon , bye bye bread and butter, the foreign automobile makers were not selling the same vehicles dodge, gm and ford were making money on so i dont see how that killed them. and lets not forget its the democrats that refuse to allow more fuel refineries, offshore oil exploration etc, to support your products sorry democrat union voters you supported the same lawmakers that are against capitalism, so called gas gusslers, suvs and most of you probably dont realize saddam hussein and binladen wanted to control the middle east oil - gulf war, terrorist attacks pipelines , wich had gone unchecked most likely would have killed the big three alot sooner. Yes oil was a factor in the iraq war. you want 5 dollar a gallon gas so were forced to conserve it so its up to you to build cars that are affordableto drive at those prices its kind of expensive to buy one of your vehicles at 600 a month and then pay harry and nancys gasoline taxes and prices at another 700 a month. your now making people choose between a house or one of your trucks.

747

Ford or GMC.