Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?

 
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:09 PM   #1
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Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


Good day to you all...

I have some conflicting reviews on this topic, and thought I would bring it here.

On a bathroom remodel, we have pulled the tub, vanity and existing tile. The existing floor is two layers of subfloor, but both are particle board.

My current plan is to remove the top layer and replace it all with hardy board... and then here starts my questions.

1) I have only heard one person say that they glue the hardy board to the lower sub-floor later, this sounds crazy, I would use many screws to make sure there is no squeeking.

2) The most important question I have, for the shower stall, I am planning a curbless entry with a forward slope to the shower doors. I am using the QuickdrainUSA product which so far seems like a good way to go. I am using their 58" linear drain and their quickslope product and the kit they supply for waterproofing.
Their instructions report to put thin-set directly to the plywood, then lay backerboard (I assume hardy) , then right onto the hardy a layer of thinset and then their quickslope material.

I have in the past been under the impression that you should always place tar-paper with mesh on top of the plywood, and then any cement / thin-set or mortar or anything like that otherwise the wood just draws all the moisture from the thin-set.

Does anyone here have any view on these questions?

Thanks
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:31 PM   #2
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


Pull both layers of particle board.

Install 3/4" T&G

Install additional ply depending on joust span

Install 1/4" backer per manufacturers instructions (thinset then screw every 6")

As for the shower FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS.

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Old 07-17-2015, 12:08 AM   #3
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


More information such as joist type, size and spacing would help.

But assuming you're finished floor is tile, I would refer to the Ditra Installation Handbook for you particular situation and proceed according to their recommendations.

I never heard of plywood sucking the moisture from the thinset. You're supposed to use a damp sponge and wipe the plywood clean immediately prior to thinset, so the plywood would already be slightly damp.

If you need to install a second subfloor layer, it is advised that you NOT attach the second layer to the floor's joists. It is also advised to use nails as opposed to screws and only fasten into the previous subfloor - do not glue the two layers together either. Refer to the TCNA Handbook.
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:42 PM   #4
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


Yes... finished floor covering will be ceramic tile.

only the section under the old tub was two layer of particle board - 3/8th and then 3/4.
The rest is 2 layers of ply, also 3/8th and 3/4.

My floor joist span is 16 OC

As for the T&G - would you agree with this, or were you referring to something else? https://www.twperry.com/MainSite/Sto...oductDetail/22

Backerboard - do you guys suggest hardy over durock - any other suggestions?

And do you also subscribe to the idea of placing the backer in the oposite direction of the plywood so the joints/seems don't coincide?

So... screws or nails for the backer to the plywood?
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Old 07-19-2015, 09:48 PM   #5
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


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Originally Posted by GreenSpringbok View Post
Yes... finished floor covering will be ceramic tile.

only the section under the old tub was two layer of particle board - 3/8th and then 3/4.
The rest is 2 layers of ply, also 3/8th and 3/4.

My floor joist span is 16 OC

As for the T&G - would you agree with this, or were you referring to something else? https://www.twperry.com/MainSite/Sto...oductDetail/22

Backerboard - do you guys suggest hardy over durock - any other suggestions?

And do you also subscribe to the idea of placing the backer in the oposite direction of the plywood so the joints/seems don't coincide?

So... screws or nails for the backer to the plywood?

I think you're on the right track. I primarily drink the Schluter Kool-Aid (Ok let's hear it...get it all out of your systems) so I'm more familiar with the Ditra installation referenced above. I've always done a 3/4" T&G subfloor with an underlayment before I lay Ditra. Although I believe for 16 O.C., Schluter only calls for a single layer 3/4" subfloor minimum.

On your Durock, it should only be a layer straight over the subfloor as noted by the manufacturer. I'm thinking that Durock over Hardi-board is a little overkill. Not to mention that with all of that plus two layers of subfloor, mortar and tile you're going to dang near build a staircase at the threshold to make up for the drop. Here are the Durock installation instructions I found...like I said, I don't install much of it so I'm not as familiar as some.

http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_M...e-en-CB237.pdf

Also, spend the $30 bucks and buy you a copy of the TCNA installation manual. Save yourself a lot of headaches and do it the right way in the beginning. Good luck.

https://www.tcnatile.com/products-an...-handbook.html

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Old 07-19-2015, 10:08 PM   #6
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


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Originally Posted by OakRoadLLC View Post
I think you're on the right track. I primarily drink the Schluter Kool-Aid (Ok let's hear it...get it all out of your systems) so I'm more familiar with the Ditra installation referenced above. I've always done a 3/4" T&G subfloor with an underlayment before I lay Ditra. Although I believe for 16 O.C., Schluter only calls for a single layer 3/4" subfloor minimum.

On your Durock, it should only be a layer straight over the subfloor as noted by the manufacturer. I'm thinking that Durock over Hardi-board is a little overkill. Not to mention that with all of that plus two layers of subfloor, mortar and tile you're going to dang near build a staircase at the threshold to make up for the drop. Here are the Durock installation instructions I found...like I said, I don't install much of it so I'm not as familiar as some.

http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_M...e-en-CB237.pdf

Also, spend the $30 bucks and buy you a copy of the TCNA installation manual. Save yourself a lot of headaches and do it the right way in the beginning. Good luck.

https://www.tcnatile.com/products-an...-handbook.html

I don't think he meant installing Durock over Hardie, but whether we prefer using Durock or Hardie.
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:01 PM   #7
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


You have a lot of misconceptions concerning subfloor prep.

All panels should always go with the face grain going perpendicular to joists. Forget tar paper and glue.

Pulling both layers of plywood would be the best but depending on how stiff the joists are framed, I would have no problem with 3/8" stapled to 3/4" particle board. Screws into particle board would not be the method I would choose.

I would waterproof the plywood areas with two coats Red Gard or Aqua Defense or a flat membrane. You could Ditra and cover the seams with Ditra band if you like that better.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:01 PM   #8
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


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Originally Posted by jb4211 View Post
More information such as joist type, size and spacing would help.

But assuming you're finished floor is tile, I would refer to the Ditra Installation Handbook for you particular situation and proceed according to their recommendations.

I never heard of plywood sucking the moisture from the thinset. You're supposed to use a damp sponge and wipe the plywood clean immediately prior to thinset, so the plywood would already be slightly damp.

If you need to install a second subfloor layer, it is advised that you NOT attach the second layer to the floor's joists. It is also advised to use nails as opposed to screws and only fasten into the previous subfloor - do not glue the two layers together either. Refer to the TCNA Handbook.
Why would he consult the ditra installation handbook when he plainly said he was installing Hardie board?

Here's my two cents.....

As you said you were gonna do, remove both the sub-floor and underlayment of particle board.
Install your 3/4" plywood if you like but I use 3/4" Sturdi-floor which is an engineered t&g (OSB type) of board and it's a great product.... you'll NEVER have a squeek, and because it's an engineered product it's naturally 200% more water-proof than plywood.
The manufacturer says to use thinset under your Hardie. I used to but I haven't for several years and I'm yet to have a problem. It won't do anything but make it stronger if you do use it.

Here's where you and I differ.... I use Durock instead of Hardie. I use 1/2" on walls and 1/4" on floors. I also thinset all joints without tape and I use a roll on moisture barrier like AquaDefense. It is an AWESOME product. :The reason I use Durock is because I find it a lot easier to work with. Yes, they both create a lot of dust, but the Durock cuts a lot faster and doesn't "blow out" on the edges if you get the screw too close. It's a preference on mine. You may prefer otherwise.

I hate Ditra, btw. I think it's terribly expensive and since I'm not having problems with the way I use Durock, then, it can't be better, only different. (and more expensive)

Good luck to you!

Last edited by KermieB; 08-17-2015 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 08-18-2015, 06:36 AM   #9
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


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Originally Posted by KermieB View Post
Why would he consult the ditra installation handbook when he plainly said he was installing Hardie board?

Here's my two cents.....

As you said you were gonna do, remove both the sub-floor and underlayment of particle board.
Install your 3/4" plywood if you like but I use 3/4" Sturdi-floor which is an engineered t&g (OSB type) of board and it's a great product.... you'll NEVER have a squeek, and because it's an engineered product it's naturally 200% more water-proof than plywood.
The manufacturer says to use thinset under your Hardie. I used to but I haven't for several years and I'm yet to have a problem. It won't do anything but make it stronger if you do use it.

Here's where you and I differ.... I use Durock instead of Hardie. I use 1/2" on walls and 1/4" on floors. I also thinset all joints without tape and I use a roll on moisture barrier like AquaDefense. It is an AWESOME product. :The reason I use Durock is because I find it a lot easier to work with. Yes, they both create a lot of dust, but the Durock cuts a lot faster and doesn't "blow out" on the edges if you get the screw too close. It's a preference on mine. You may prefer otherwise.

I hate Ditra, btw. I think it's terribly expensive and since I'm not having problems with the way I use Durock, then, it can't be better, only different. (and more expensive)

Good luck to you!
I don't agree with almost your whole post.
I especially don't agree with doing the opposite of what the manufacture instructs you to do when installing their product.

But, that's just my opinion. What do I know?
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:55 PM   #10
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


You guys are trying to cover too many things. No floor is all particle board, osb maybe , but ,not two layers of particle board. Subfloor construction and backer installation are different things....and the shower is another area or difficulty entirely, especially since barrier free. Waterproof is like pregnant...either you are or you aren't. This whole thread is typical of wet area set up misconception s and misunderstandings brought about by too many systems and choices , and guys trying to put it all together. Sadly, the manufacturers are often misguided as well.
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:25 PM   #11
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


The way I do it is, pull up everything and get yourself down to subfloor. reshoot the subfloor with ring shank nails and then depending on the thickness of the subfloor and span of the joists add another layer of ply and glue and shoot that down. Then mud the floor with versa bond and install 1/2 hardie backer.
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:28 PM   #12
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


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The way I do it is, pull up everything and get yourself down to subfloor. reshoot the subfloor with ring shank nails and then depending on the thickness of the subfloor and span of the joists add another layer of ply and glue and shoot that down. Then mud the floor with versa bond and install 1/2 hardie backer.
That is also the opposite of what is suggested by the TCNA.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:37 AM   #13
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


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That is also the opposite of what is suggested by the TCNA.
Thats the way I've always done it and I've never had a floor throw grout or crack on me.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:52 AM   #14
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


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Thats the way I've always done it and I've never had a floor throw grout or crack on me.
Evan, that's a poor excuse for doing the opposite of what's recommended.

I think it's best to never subscribe to that mindset, "that's the way I've always done it." You may have been doing it wrong all along.

Just my opinion, but I try and adhere to the recommend installation methods from either the manufacture or the governing authority on the subject. I also, try and stay open minded to better ways of doing something.

One thing I've learned from this site, is being opened minded is the best practice. You don't have to necessarily agree with someone else, but being open minded in considering other methods or materials only makes you more informed and a better contractor. Just my thoughts.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:58 AM   #15
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


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Evan, that's a poor excuse for doing the opposite of what's recommended.

I think it's best to never subscribe to that mindset, "that's the way I've always done it." You may have been doing it wrong all along.

Just my opinion, but I try and adhere to the recommend installation methods from either the manufacture or the governing authority on the subject. I also, try and stay open minded to better ways of doing something.

One thing I've learned from this site, is being opened minded is the best practice. You don't have to necessarily agree with someone else, but being open minded in considering other methods or materials only makes you more informed and a better contractor. Just my thoughts.
Thanks for your input.
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:16 AM   #16
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


If you don't have a TCNA book, pick one up. If you attend a Schluter training class they give you one. Others might too, I don't know.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:33 AM   #17
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


Partical Board? Is a mobile home. Wow. Good luck
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:36 AM   #18
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You popped up in a 2 year old thread to make a snarky remark?

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Old 06-17-2017, 10:06 AM   #19
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Partical Board? Is a mobile home. Wow. Good luck
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You popped up in a 2 year old thread to make a snarky remark?

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Irony...
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:09 AM   #20
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Re: Thinset Or Plywood, Or Tar Paper First?


I'm not a morning person.

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