New Laminate Over Old.

 
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Old 12-03-2005, 10:35 AM   #1
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New Laminate Over Old.


I have a customer who want't new lam on her bath counter. I have never tried this before. Could I rough up the existing laminate and go over? or does the old need to come off? It is in great condition and well adhered. Front edge is finshed with oak and trimmed at a 45 degree bevel.

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Old 12-03-2005, 11:02 AM   #2
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


This is commonly done. Sand the old with 80 grit.

That front wood bevel might be the hold up. You'll see the edge of both layers of laminate exposed when you trim for the bevel. It'll be interesting to learn what others have to say.

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Old 12-03-2005, 01:34 PM   #3
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


The wood edge needs to come off.
Problem is, it will tear the hell out of the top.

chances are, you will need to build a new top.
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Old 12-03-2005, 05:28 PM   #4
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Sure, you can do it, - - just sand as stated above, and let your new laminate extend an extra 1/4" or so, - - then install a new rabbetted and beveled oak edging right over the old.

Simple enough if you're set up with a shop, - - otherwise you need to weigh the cost-efficiency of the time you'll spend against simply getting a new one made.
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Old 12-03-2005, 05:28 PM   #5
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


I wouldnt lam over old. Just a cheap way of doing it. You can use a heat gun or a propane torch and peel off the old stuff, beltsand and voila ready to lam new. The oak strip may need to be replaced with new to look it best.
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Old 12-03-2005, 06:57 PM   #6
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


I've never done that and really can't see the benefit. You have to remove the sink no matter what you do and I can't imagine that oak trim is in very good condition, wood trim on a wet area usually doesn't go together too well. I assume this tip is the old style built in place with squared edges? This is a great time to upgrade (upsell the customer) to a coved back splash and a waterfall edge which would be available to her with a new post formed laminate vanity top. Maybe I'm just lucky since I have a company here locally that will build a custom sized vanity top in laminate for under $100.00 in less than a week, then all it becomes is a matter of out with the old and in with the new.
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Old 12-03-2005, 08:21 PM   #7
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


I've laminated over older stuff a few times with no problems. I sand, then make a 3 x 5 scratch block with 20 or so drywall screws sticking out the other side and scratch the heck out of the old laminate. Vacuum and wipe with lacquer thinner and it's ready to go.
Can you rout out the front edge with a straightedge and a router and glue a new piece in? Make sure there are no metal fasteners first!
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Old 12-04-2005, 01:00 PM   #8
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


I think I am going to try to remove the old laminate. I don't like the idea of the two edges showing when just going over the old. As far as removing the oak I want to leave it as this is not a total bath overhaul. It started with just being a new surround. I upsold new floor, sinks & faucets and laminate. There is a lot of other oak in the bath and I don't want to worry about matching the old with the new. Customer doesn't want lam on the front of the counter, they like the oak and are just changing the color scheme a little.

This is one my few bath remodels that didn't get it's start due to a leak or dry-rot.

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Old 10-05-2009, 10:03 AM   #9
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


One of the problems with forums is that people answering the questions often dont know what they're talking about. Thats especially true in the DIY forums. And there's no room for errors.
Having said that, here's what Wilsonart, a leading laminate manufacturer provides when you contact them about lam over lam installs.
Note that they dont recommend doing it, which means you're on your own. Also note they recommend far more than "scuff sanding"
This attachment is in reference to your request for information on Wilsonart® High Pressure Decorative Laminate (HPDL) and appropriate substrates.

Wilsonart® HPDL consists of phenolic treated kraft paper and melamine treated decorative sheets that are fused under high heat and pressure. Wilsonart® HPDL also conforms to the National Electrical Manufactures Association (NEMA) standards. This standard (NEMA LD3 1995) provides test methods and performance values for HPDL related to end use applications.

It is recommended to bond HPDL to particleboard or medium density fiberboard. Bonding over gypsum board and HPDL is not recommended. Bonding issues may occur, on the non-recommended substrates, due to issues such as inadequate strength of the substrate, improper application of the adhesive and fabrication.

You specifically ask about bonding to the surface of an existing HPDL top. If you are unable to utilize new particleboard or MDF and choose to bond to the existing HPDL, the following techniques have been used by other fabricators in the field. However, Wilsonart® DOES NOT recommend bonding to the existing surface of laminate.

·The existing HPDL is inspected to insure that the material is bonded securely
·The surface of the existing HPDL is sanded to remove the decorative paper layer and melamine resin rich surface
·The surface is cleaned to remove all dust
·The adhesive is applied to the top and the sanded side of the new laminate (Normally, a solvent based contact adhesive is used)
·The adhesive is allowed to dry, per the manufactures recommendation. (this is an extremely important step, you do not want to trap excess solvents)
·The material is bonded
·Pressure is applied with a 3” J-roller

Also, please refer to the Architectural Woodwork Quality Standards for additional information.

If you have concerns about this application, please call your fabricator and discuss the issue with him.

I hope this information is helpful, if you have further questions please feel free to call.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:13 AM   #10
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MFlemming View Post
One of the problems with forums is that people answering the questions often dont know what they're talking about. Thats especially true in the DIY forums. And there's no room for errors.
Having said that, here's what Wilsonart, a leading laminate manufacturer provides when you contact them about lam over lam installs.
Note that they dont recommend doing it, which means you're on your own. Also note they recommend far more than "scuff sanding"
This attachment is in reference to your request for information on Wilsonart® High Pressure Decorative Laminate (HPDL) and appropriate substrates.

Wilsonart® HPDL consists of phenolic treated kraft paper and melamine treated decorative sheets that are fused under high heat and pressure. Wilsonart® HPDL also conforms to the National Electrical Manufactures Association (NEMA) standards. This standard (NEMA LD3 1995) provides test methods and performance values for HPDL related to end use applications.

It is recommended to bond HPDL to particleboard or medium density fiberboard. Bonding over gypsum board and HPDL is not recommended. Bonding issues may occur, on the non-recommended substrates, due to issues such as inadequate strength of the substrate, improper application of the adhesive and fabrication.

You specifically ask about bonding to the surface of an existing HPDL top. If you are unable to utilize new particleboard or MDF and choose to bond to the existing HPDL, the following techniques have been used by other fabricators in the field. However, Wilsonart® DOES NOT recommend bonding to the existing surface of laminate.

·The existing HPDL is inspected to insure that the material is bonded securely
·The surface of the existing HPDL is sanded to remove the decorative paper layer and melamine resin rich surface
·The surface is cleaned to remove all dust
·The adhesive is applied to the top and the sanded side of the new laminate (Normally, a solvent based contact adhesive is used)
·The adhesive is allowed to dry, per the manufactures recommendation. (this is an extremely important step, you do not want to trap excess solvents)
·The material is bonded
·Pressure is applied with a 3” J-roller

Also, please refer to the Architectural Woodwork Quality Standards for additional information.

If you have concerns about this application, please call your fabricator and discuss the issue with him.

I hope this information is helpful, if you have further questions please feel free to call.
Another problem with forums is people answering 4 year old posts....
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:15 AM   #11
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JumboJack View Post
Another problem with forums is people answering 4 year old posts....
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:19 AM   #12
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JumboJack View Post
Another problem with forums is people answering 4 year old posts....
I'm sure the OP has been holding
his breath for the last four years
waiting for Mr, Flemming's wisdom.
Also pretty sure Mr Flemming isn't
familiar with lawyer's weasel words.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:58 AM   #13
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Nice first post by the way.

Good Luck
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:37 PM   #14
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


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Old 10-05-2009, 02:26 PM   #15
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MFlemming View Post
For the record, it's mostly roosters. (Some exceptions will apply)

It's considered polite to start off in the introduction section and tell a little about yourself so we can see who's calling us hacks. With a few thousand registered members I'm certain you could expect at least some to take offense when your opening post states the problem with forums is the people answering don't know what they are talking about.

Get over yourself and settle in, I'm sure you'll like it here.

And put that broad brush down for awhile.

Good Luck
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Old 10-06-2009, 07:50 AM   #16
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


you were a hall monitor in grade school.
Thanks for the tips, captain
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:05 AM   #17
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


It will be a pain but the correct way to approach this would be to remove the old laminate. Sand off remaining adhesive that was left from old laminate, rough up the surface with 80 grit sand paper, apply new adhesive and attach new surface.

Useful tip: Use the old laminate pieces as a guide for cutting your new ones. This will save time and insure a perfect fit.
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:24 AM   #18
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Hopefully any discussion on this subject will be useful, as in this business environment, customers are demanding- problems and misunderstandings are not welcome. We're doing a commercial job with several thousand sq. ft. of laminate over laminate work- and it's all walls- which makes adhesion even more critical. We noted on the contract that the work was not guaranteed in any way, as the manufaturer does not recommend this procedure-at all.
All too often, customers want to take short cuts to save money, and the burden of the liablitiy and blame falls on the contractor if their short cut idea doesnt work out.
Putting disclaimers in the contract may well cost you the job, but the reality is some customers are just looking for somebody to hang.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:34 PM   #19
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Use a propane torch for removal. Heat the laminate until the laminate just begins to bubble up and burn a little. Than use a putty knife to get under the edge of the laminate working it up. A flat pry bar is also useful for this. Hope this helps.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:56 PM   #20
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Re: New Laminate Over Old.


Let's return to civility!

I have a friend who is excellent at this and has been doing it for over 25 yrs. with repeat customers. No threepete's, according to him it's a one time deal.

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