Code Question In Ohio

trptman

Im doing some enclosed porch repairs that involved removing a rotted (they didn't use pressure treated lumber originally) 4x4 post in the corner of the existing porch deck and replacing it with a P.T. post.
I also removed the 2x4 walls that enclosed the porch with plywood for siding and screeened openings instead of real windows that let water in and caused some rot, and rebuilt them better (to just essentially create a more weather-tight mudroom of sorts).

there's a fair amount of work that took place but the porch is only about 140 sq. ft. we are not talking about a major addition or anything. the bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that the house had an enclosed porch, and it still has one, only in better condition supported in the same manner as far as posts and 2x4 walls.

I figured all this stuff would fall under "repairs or maintenance" as far as the residential ohio building code was concerned. but I have the local building official now on my back after I'm almost done saying that I needed to pull permits for this repair and he's citing me section 105.2.2 saying that since I removed load bearing support the project needs drawings submitted etc.
Im arguing that section applies where someone simply removes something. Not in my case where the removal was temporary and I put it back with solid (not rotted) lumber.
I think my work should fall under 115.6 which states repairs don't need to meet requirements for new work provided they are done in the same manner and not less safe etc.

Anyone in Ohio give me some insight or opinion on whether there is anything else I can use, or am I just in the wrong on this one?

there hasn't been any mention if he wants everything taken apart-which would be impossible-the porch roof and deck would fall down as not enough of the original structure is still there to hold it up if I removed my work.

I'm hoping all he wants is a little permit money and a couple of quick drawings, but the fact that he's even brought this up at all has me a bit worried.
thanks for any advice anyone can give.

trptman

Not much response on this one
I guess this is a thread that would have a rather narrow audience.
well, for anyone that read this, or had any interest.
I met with the building dept. guys for about 2 hours going over this both at their office and at the job site and they won't budge on their position that I needed a permit for the work. It was a nice civil discussion, but didn't end quite how I'd hoped.
the positive side is that they seem fine with everything I've done so far and there was no mention of undoing any work. I just need to submit drawings matching what I've done and pay the permit fee (of course)...

still, if anyone reads this and has any different insight for future reference, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Warren

Not sure about this but suppose the replacement you did was on a post that was undersized to begin with. Even though you replaced of equal size you still didnt remedy the overloaded post. I think they have a right to make a judgement call on items like this. I have an addition we are doing that requires me to cut an existing steel beam, shorten its span, and install new bearing post. They probably could require me to get an engineer, but they are allowing me to do it without one. Then again I have a good working relationship with this department and the new post will be a steel post unlike the old wood support just because I want to be sure.

trptman

The rotted post I mentioned is not the only means of support for the porch, but it is on the corner where the sag occured. What I put back was more than just the original post, to "beef up" the support, so to speak.

I'm not arguing with them anymore, it's not a big enough deal to keep wasting time on, I just didn't think I had to notify them on this repair.
The other issue is that there has been an "inconsistent" history of code enforcement in my town. This kind of thing (porch repair) has never seemed to draw any attention from anyone before. So it never really occurred to me to notify anyone

Thanks for the reply and good luck on your addition.

mrmike

I think this is completely ridiculous. Maybe one of your competitors turned you in??? Would any HO get a permit to do this to his little porch ? I don't think he would even think about it like you. I'll bet you are , I know I would be.
Sounds like another case of some office worker that cannot really do any work in the field, made up this rule in the books, when he had alot of time on his hands. It is a shame it has come to this..............

Home Work Pro

The aggrivating part is the fact that each city has different requirements. There is no consistency!

I carry a County license, and still within that county there are many cities that require me to register, post bond, provide insurance etc. Oh, and of course pay!

Each one has there own set of rules as far as what does and doesn't require a permit.

This is very time consuming spending countless hours on the phone.

Just venting

trptman

I hear both of you. and I don't think it was a competitor that turned me in. I"m pretty sure it was municipal water workers. They were out at the house because of a plugged sewer flushing the city sewer line. then "amazingly" the day after they are there, I get informed I'm "in violation of city codes etc. etc."

I submitted some drawings and talked over what I was doing at length with the building dept., my impression is that I'm going to be ok now. they said they'd have something for me (hopefully just a set of approved plans) tues. since monday's a holiday. I was even able to joke with the guy and tell him in that case, I didn't mind if he stayed late friday to work on them since he was off monday.....It was "ok" with me...

luckily he saw the humor.

also I'm doing some repair (far less extensive than the initial porch) to another porch, and asked about it. of course they wanted drawings on it too.
so I submitted those also and couldn't resist making the comment(politely of course) "you know, it took longer to make these drawings than it will to actually do the work".

trptman

There's probably more tied to that statement than you realize.
most of these building departments depend on fees they collect to help support their departments costs.

It's not their fault it's set up that way, but you can never discount the money factor in things.

Crock

You touch it- you do the repair to bring the structure up to current code.

If you are unlicensed and it sounds like you are, there will be a warrant for your arrest. You will be held over to answer to the charge of failure to obtain a permit, altering a structure without proper license.

Each count carries a max 6 months and 2000 fine. Most likely if this is your first offense the judge will prolly force you to test and pass for your license and pay a small fine. Probably less than 1000.

Bottom line is get insurance, get a license, pay your taxes, or get out of this business. I hope you get a judge that wants to make an example out of you.

trptman

Thanks for the completely 'helpful' post.
You are either a) not in Ohio and are basing your post on another state's law
or if you are in Ohio, then b) you are misinformed about what parts of the building code say.

Example. Just because you "touch" something or make a repair-you do NOT necessarily have to bring it up to code as if it were new construction.

Perhaps you'd care to look up section 115.6 in the OBC
I'll quote a couple of pertinent sections my emphasis added etc.

"...repairs to existing systems, ... building components not otherwise provided for in this section, shall NOT BE REQUIRED to meet the provisions for new construction, provided such work is done in accordance with the conditions...in the same manner and arrangement as was in the existing system, is not less safe than when originally installed..."

Allow me to translate.
You can do repair work and it doesn't automatically have to trigger anything other than a standard of workmanship as high as or better than what you are fixing. It's right there in the code.

I was told that had I not removed the rotted wood etc. in the course of my repair, and only reinforced it somehow, that I wouldn't have needed a permit. that would have been a "repair" in their eyes. I argued that was a ridiculous way to interpret that because it encourages people to do slipshod repairs to avoid the costs of permits and drawings etc. That wasn't what I was doing, I completely removed the defective components and replaced them.

they argued, looking at section 105.2.2, that once I removed completely the bad components even though it was temporary and I put them back, that triggered the need for a permit as if it was a new porch etc.
seems to me to be a fine line open to interpretation in my favor as well.

There are also provisions in the code (don't feel like looking up the exact code section right now-I've wasted enough time with you already) that allow someone to alter things in a structure and not have to make the whole place meet the standard for new construction, only what you alter etc.

So before you lecture me as a moron that has no idea what I'm doing, you might want to do a little research of your own my friend.

naptown CR

Guy sounds legit to me siting ordinances etc. If he was as you say the Building department wouldn't even be talking to him

Crock

he atleast is able to extract the code quotes. my guess he is unlicensed or he would have just went in and paid the double permit fee for getting caught with his hands in the cookie jar.

the problem is this. lets say this guys does nice work. the other guy that bid against him was a few dollars higher because he has to pay for permit, pay the licensing fees every year, and pay for the required insurance.

thats why it's imperative to lock these guys up and shut them down.

Warren

In Ohio we do not have to be licensed by the state. Some municipalities have their own licensing requirements but others have none.

trptman

I should have "just paid the double permit fee"??

Why should I voluntarily pay for a permit that i still don't think I need. I still think the building department is interpreting that section wrong but they still want the permit so, I'm getting it because it's not worth any more hassle and time on my part, but if I want to make a charitable donation to the city, I'll just write them a check to the general fund. I don't go looking for ways to increase my costs if I don't have to, you shouldn't either and no business that hopes to survive does.

and your suggestions that I be locked up because I didn't buy a permit for work that in the past, has never been interpreted as needing one around here, is ridiculous.

You obviously have some personal experience that colors your view of my situation, which you keep describing inaccurately. I'm sorry for whatever has happened to you, but I asked originally for opinion from someone in ohio or at least familiar with the codes I'm referring to. You obviously are neither.

trptman

Exactly right. and the town I'm in has no local licensing.
so "crock", again I say you might do a little research before spouting off about a situation that you don't really know anything about.

Crock

My bad, I thought I had read that you were caught by a code enforcement agent.

I apologize for the mis-read.

trptman

apology accepted and thanks, (but you might re read things before you decide you are going to unload on someone).
It was the local residential building inspector, that wanted me to pull a permit, that contacted me.

Crock

Oh,OK, I wouldn't worry about him. Now if it was a code enforcement officer then that would be a different story. I should have asked for clarifacation.

It was your terminology that confused me. There is a huge difference between a building inspector and a home inspector. One enforces the law. The other is similar to a termite inspector that the home owner hires to check the condition of their dwelling.


.

naptown CR

read it again he as caught by the local BUILDING INSPECTOR which the last time I checked was the same as a code enforcement inspector.
Have you got your glasses on?

trptman

No, it was the building inspector (which would be the code enforcement).
But I'm still not sure what the problem would be. I was doing work that had (as far as I know) always been allowed and no one had ever been made to have permits for in my town. When I was finally notified that they wanted a permit pulled-they did not cite poor workmanship, unsafe construction etc.
It was simply a matter of them changing how they enforce something- since this kind of work goes on all the time and I KNOW they have'nt been requiring permits. It's a porch-It's readily visible- it's easy to see when someone is doing work.
(The next porch repair I see I'm going to make damn sure has a permit posted or I'm going to get pretty irate with the building dept)

When reading the code you can reasonably interpret it to say what I was doing was repair (that would need no permit)

They read it a little differently and took a more restrictive view.

I simply asked if anyone knew of any other code sections that might apply to use to argue my case.

I prefer to be left alone to do my job. I'm not doing anything that is outside the reach of my abilities and I don't need their input, advice, (or should need in this case) their approval.
All that being said-I finally did submit drawings and paperwork for the permit to get this whole situation over with. Doing all that took me probably longer than finishing the actual repair (and I told them that too-in a cordial way of course).