Anyone Else?

HANDM · 02-17-2008, 02:52 AM

Is it just me, or do you wonder why folks post dumb Questions like.... how much ? how long? How to?
Isn't it safe to say, that if you know your trade ,you know what it costs, how long it takes and how to do it.

I like this forum for its informational value on certain things but just don't like the ever present aforementioned questions. I like to read about bad homeowners, jobs gone sideways, can of worms remodel and the like, as well as experience with new products, if I wanted how to questions, I would go to work and deal with the employee

trav007 · 02-17-2008, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HANDM

Is it just me, or do you wonder why folks post dumb Questions like.... how much ? how long? How to?
Isn't it safe to say, that if you know your trade ,you know what it costs, how long it takes and how to do it.

I like this forum for its informational value on certain things but just don't like the ever present aforementioned questions. I like to read about bad homeowners, jobs gone sideways, can of worms remodel and the like, as well as experience with new products, if I wanted how to questions, I would go to work and deal with the employee

I suppose you could say there is no such thing as a dumb question (even though I've been on the recieving end of a few doozies) but if the answer to that question can be beneficial to someone, wouldn't it be worth asking.

Not everybody can know everything about everything.

dayspring · 02-17-2008, 07:20 AM

Must be nice to know everything about everything.

Tom R · 02-17-2008, 09:04 AM

If there weren't what you call 'dumb' questions, - - you'd have no reference point from which to gauge which ones were 'smart' . . .

On a lighter note, - - I'm sure there are a lot more dumb answers than dumb questions around here

dayspring · 02-17-2008, 10:50 AM

As usual Tom, I gonna have to agree.

skylands · 02-17-2008, 11:52 AM

Well, aren't "bad customers" the result of not understanding "how much" the project cost in the first place?

.....and "jobs gone sideways" can easily track back to someone underestimating "how long" the project was suppose to take.

.....and a "can of worms remodel" wreeks of not understanding the "how to" of the remodel business.

It's my understanding that 95% of all contractors are not in the phone book after 5 years. If a forum like this can save even one contractor from adding more dirt to that statistic, then I say ...."Bring on the questions"

We should be encouraging our employees to ask questions to project an ora of professionalisum to the customers. Talking down to a person for asking how to do something is a sign of a contractor I'd never want in front of any of my customers.

Jason Whipple · 02-17-2008, 12:38 PM

Well said Skylands

There are many ways of doing things. If we can't ask or peers how they might approach something, then what is the use for these forums? Even after 24 years, I run into things I've never done before.

For the most part, my experience can carry me through to a logical solution. When we have others in the trade that we can bounce our ideas off from it starts a whole new dimension of thinking and almost every time, a clearer or better solution is a result of it. These new or different ideas then have a reflection on time and price.

This forum wouldn't have much purpose if it wasn't for the questions that lead to swapping ideas and techniques. It makes us all better as a result. (except for the OP that apparently know it all)

orson · 02-17-2008, 02:11 PM

I have absolutely no problem answering a how long or how much question if I happen to have anything intelligent to say on the subject. I think it actually helps all of us to give realistic pricing strategies to less experienced contractors(like myslef, fairly new to GCing). When we help people in this way it is one less lowballer out there for us to compete with.

I have personaly learned to stop asking how long questions since I get raked over the coals by the mechanicals guys for asking them. Estimating time on plumbing and HVAC is my weakest area, and sometimes I know I am just wasting my time to run my plumber to a jobsite to look at something, however, I still have an obligation to give the customer a realistic estimate or quote.

My main problem with this whole sight is that many of the contributors feel the need to give assinine responses to people who ask how much or how long questions rather than just choosing to ignore them if they don't appreciate those types of questions.

Grumpyplumber · 02-17-2008, 03:10 PM

My trade tends to discourage DIY or handyman work.
Too many headlines in local papers of CO deaths & poisonings, fires & explosions.
Too many seemingly small & unimportant details on plumbing/gas work that can be misinterpretted online and create a safety hazard.
We're required to endure an apprenticeship, study in school while working, then pass a test after 5 years.
I think I speak for a majority of the plumbers who frequent this site when I say I'm not up to offering free info to a handyman thats going to underbid me on my own jobs, then come here to ask me how to do it without a license.

Not all questions are from illegal/unlicensed individuals...most of the regulars here know who's who.

The MAIN reason I joined this forum in particular was the fact that I was talking to other professionals that I could relate to & exchange idea's.

I'll even go one step further and admit that I've learned alot more than I've taught here with regards to things like marketing, IT, sales and other topics ...in time I hope that I can reciprocate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orson

My main problem with this whole sight is that many of the contributors feel the need to give assinine responses to people who ask how much or how long questions rather than just choosing to ignore them if they don't appreciate those types of questions.

Most experienced pro's know the time and cost of basic projects, when a new member asks these questions right off the bat on his first post, it's often a sign of either a landlord wanting to cut corners, a "hack" looking for free info to make money at the expense of your experience (potentially having taken work from you in an underbid), or a homeowner doing something he shouldn't.
Not all requests for info are this, but "date joined", "number of posts" and familiarity with members here are usually the variables that evoke silly replies.

troubleseeker · 02-17-2008, 03:31 PM

How long or how to, I can understand, but I am always amused by how much. Do you work for $100 per day or $500 per day? Is your overhead 5% or 35% of your work value? Is the wage for help you need in your region of the country $7 per hour or $25 per hour, etc, etc.

orson · 02-17-2008, 03:41 PM

[quote=Grumpyplumber;380578]

Most experienced pro's know the time and cost of basic projects...[/quote]

What about inexperienced pros? Everyone started somehwere. There is no single thing more difficult to do in a new business than determine pricing, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with an inetelligent journeyman level tradesman with some additional broad building trade knowledge going into a custom home or remodeling or spec house building business. I heard someone on this forumn before say that you should have 15 years experience in each trade before you GC. I'm still consfused about how you run a business after you're dead.

HANDM · 02-17-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skylands

Well, aren't "bad customers" the result of not understanding "how much" the project cost in the first place?

BY bad customers, I meant, ones that nickel and dime you and expect something for nothing and wind up disputing the final bill

.....and "jobs gone sideways" can easily track back to someone underestimating "how long" the project was suppose to take.

By jobs gone sideways, I meant, subcontractor delays, homeowners not furnishing product choices in a timely manner and homeowners "saving money" by choosing the cheapest possible proiducts.

.....and a "can of worms remodel" wreeks of not understanding the "how to" of the remodel business.

By can of worms remodel, I meant for instance, opening a wall for minor elctrical/ plumbing and finding that the whole wall/ floor is rotten and requiring extensive explorations to find the end.

We should be encouraging our employees to ask questions to project an ora of professionalisum to the customers. Talking down to a person for asking how to do something is a sign of a contractor I'd never want in front of any of my customers.

Who said I talk down to a person? I have never had a employee/ HO think that is the case, so why would you say that

I always say to the employee "the only dumb question is the one you didn't ask. That being said I don't like to explain the same thing over and over again and catch them making the same mistake ,over and over again

I am not saying I know everything about everything either, I am just saying that if you don't know how to estimate, you should get someone who does and don't rely on forums such as this

KillerToiletSpider · 02-17-2008, 03:55 PM

[quote=orson;380604]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpyplumber

Most experienced pro's know the time and cost of basic projects...[/quote]

What about inexperienced pros? Everyone started somehwere. There is no single thing more difficult to do in a new business than determine pricing, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with an inetelligent journeyman level tradesman with some additional broad building trade knowledge going into a custom home or remodeling or spec house building business. I heard someone on this forumn before say that you should have 15 years experience in each trade before you GC. I'm still consfused about how you run a business after you're dead.

I have no problem helping someone out on something they are not sure of, but it is sometimes difficult to do without pictures or very detailed descriptions. How long does it take to run a drain from the second floor to the basement? That is an impossible question to answer without a hell of a lot more detail.

Norrrrrrrrrrrrm · 02-17-2008, 04:06 PM

I don't think it is a bad idea to ask questions here if you have an idea on what you are doing. I think many here are trying to make a living and need to pick up or inrease their skill level. I think it is good for them to get some pro insight and then they can decide if it is for them or not.
I am a remodeler and I can do drywall just fine but did not know what to charge. One time I needed a price range to see what drywallers were doing it for to see if I was in the range of being fair to myself and the homeowner. I got good responses and now I have a gauge to go from. I appreciate the time and knowledge from the pro's to freely give their info here to help others who are also trying to live. This website is a huge database of info and help, and I am happy to give any help I can becuase it has been given to me.

Grumpyplumber · 02-17-2008, 04:21 PM

[quote=orson;380604]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpyplumber

Most experienced pro's know the time and cost of basic projects...[/quote]

What about inexperienced pros? Everyone started somehwere. There is no single thing more difficult to do in a new business than determine pricing, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with an inetelligent journeyman level tradesman with some additional broad building trade knowledge going into a custom home or remodeling or spec house building business. I heard someone on this forumn before say that you should have 15 years experience in each trade before you GC. I'm still consfused about how you run a business after you're dead.

"Inexperienced" pro?

Huh?

There lies the dilemma...experience.
If a guy just decides he's sick of working as a security guard and decides to take a shortcut for fast cash & start remodeling without experience, he's completely underestimating the difficulty & effectively will drag the local competition down with underbids & a bad rap.
Not just him, but all of these individuals that pop onto the scene and dissapear shortly after they lose their shirts collectively in any given area.
There was a thread on this Forum a few months back regarding a show By "Holmes on Homes" that covered this topic quite well, do a forum search for the term.
You get the experience working for experienced companies/shops, pro's.
Not in an online chat forum.

skylands · 02-17-2008, 05:32 PM

"I am not saying I know everything about everything either, I am just saying that if you don't know how to estimate, you should get someone who does and don't rely on forums such as this"

Non of us know everything. But as a group of professionals we should be here for each other. When a new guy joins the plumbers association he's greeted with incouragement. But here the moderators allow him to be slammed for trying to improve himself.

In terms of these forums, I think it's pretty easy to spot a landloard, or a night watchman moonlighting.

The forums are here. Everyone has access to them and people are going to come here to try to save a buck and bypass us. If you don't want the HO's on the board (which I don't) then this should be a members only board with a password. Otherwise, you have to read the post and determine whether your talking to a HO and respond accordingly.

So maby it's time to determine who is allowed to post on these sites.

Questions should never be discouraged. It's the answers that need to be carefully examined.

Grumpyplumber · 02-17-2008, 07:38 PM

It's a website designed for contractors.
Contractors are confronted with statements from customers who tend to generalize or oversimplify their work constantly.
They may not realize it, but it can be insulting.
There is another forum linked to this one for DIY inquiries, and from what I've seen since joining, DIY's are encouraged to join that forum, dissuaded from asking questions here.
There's a comradery here associated with the frustrations and toils of the trades, part of that is the humor...a great way to vent in a forum for contractors.
I go to Rome, I don't tell them to act Irish.
I go to a website specific to contractors, I don't expect lotsa warm hugs and consideration for my feelings.
I have yet to work a jobsite where the GC or foreman has asked us to be more considerate of feelings regarding the answers we give to questions on "how to".
Expecting moderators to start editing posts that may not be considerate of the feelings of DIY requests might be a bit extreme...no?
Enforcing rules on how to convey your humor here makes me think of all the fun of a condo association full of uptight retiree's with a lot of time on their hands.
DIY requests are often easy to spot here...generally a first time post starting a thread to the effect: "I need info on how to frame a house" might be a good indicator.
I race to those just for the sure fire chuckles.
On the flip side, there are longterm members here who might need advice on a new type project, a major perk to this site is the exchange of information between professionals.

Ron The Plumber · 02-17-2008, 07:52 PM

[quote=KillerToiletSpi;380615]

Quote:

Originally Posted by orson

I have no problem helping someone out on something they are not sure of, but it is sometimes difficult to do without pictures or very detailed descriptions. How long does it take to run a drain from the second floor to the basement? That is an impossible question to answer without a hell of a lot more detail.

Most agree with this statement, in plumbing forum when someone enters and post how do I plumb a bathroom and the cost, and or time it will take, and they have no clue or knowledge, there not going to get it from me. If one can't supply the need info or pictures. I'll be the first to tell that poster there in the wrong place for that answer. IMO

orson · 02-17-2008, 08:45 PM

[quote=Ron The Plumber;380759]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerToiletSpi

Most agree with this statement, in plumbing forum when someone enters and post how do I plumb a bathroom and the cost, and or time it will take, and they have no clue or knowledge, there not going to get it from me. If one can't supply the need info or pictures. I'll be the first to tell that poster there in the wrong place for that answer. IMO

number one, I'm not sure why you are posting a statement and attributing it to me that I never wrote.

number two, in that particular thread noone asked me any questions or asked me for any pictures, they just started ridiculing me immediately. That is fine, do as you wish. There are people who are here to be helpful and generous with their knowledge, and there are people who are here to stroke their own egos.

Ron The Plumber · 02-17-2008, 08:50 PM

Hold on now, where in my reply does it say orson?

So now quote me.

02-17-2008, 02:52 AM	#1
HANDM View Profile HANDM Handle it Man! Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (19) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Handle it Man! Trade: General Contractor, remodel, additions and new homes Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Left coast, Washington Posts: 19	Anyone Else? Is it just me, or do you wonder why folks post dumb Questions like.... how much ? how long? How to? Isn't it safe to say, that if you know your trade ,you know what it costs, how long it takes and how to do it. I like this forum for its informational value on certain things but just don't like the ever present aforementioned questions. I like to read about bad homeowners, jobs gone sideways, can of worms remodel and the like, as well as experience with new products, if I wanted how to questions, I would go to work and deal with the employee

02-17-2008, 07:20 AM	#3
dayspring View Profile dayspring ContractorTalk Flunkie Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,038) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity ContractorTalk Flunkie Trade: Remodeling and Renovation Contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Murphy, NC Hometown of Eric Rudolf Posts: 1,038	Re: Anyone Else? Must be nice to know everything about everything. __________________ T.C. "Never met a man yet that I couldn't learn something from" Met a few you couldn't teach though http://remodelingncarolina.com

02-17-2008, 09:04 AM	#4
Tom R View Profile Tom R Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,484) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Carpenter Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 6,484	Re: Anyone Else? If there weren't what you call 'dumb' questions, - - you'd have no reference point from which to gauge which ones were 'smart' . . . On a lighter note, - - I'm sure there are a lot more dumb answers than dumb questions around here __________________ http://www.tr-built.com Last edited by Tom R; 02-17-2008 at 09:09 AM.

02-17-2008, 10:50 AM	#5
dayspring View Profile dayspring ContractorTalk Flunkie Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,038) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity ContractorTalk Flunkie Trade: Remodeling and Renovation Contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Murphy, NC Hometown of Eric Rudolf Posts: 1,038	Re: Anyone Else? As usual Tom, I gonna have to agree. __________________ T.C. "Never met a man yet that I couldn't learn something from" Met a few you couldn't teach though http://remodelingncarolina.com

02-17-2008, 11:52 AM	#6
skylands View Profile skylands Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (189) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: restoration Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Catskills Posts: 189	Re: Anyone Else? Well, aren't "bad customers" the result of not understanding "how much" the project cost in the first place? .....and "jobs gone sideways" can easily track back to someone underestimating "how long" the project was suppose to take. .....and a "can of worms remodel" wreeks of not understanding the "how to" of the remodel business. It's my understanding that 95% of all contractors are not in the phone book after 5 years. If a forum like this can save even one contractor from adding more dirt to that statistic, then I say ...."Bring on the questions" We should be encouraging our employees to ask questions to project an ora of professionalisum to the customers. Talking down to a person for asking how to do something is a sign of a contractor I'd never want in front of any of my customers. Last edited by skylands; 02-17-2008 at 12:00 PM. Reason: spelling

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02-17-2008, 12:38 PM	#7
Jason Whipple View Profile Jason Whipple Restoration Crazy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,308) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Restoration Crazy Trade: Restoration & Historic Preservation Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 3,308	Re: Anyone Else? Well said Skylands There are many ways of doing things. If we can't ask or peers how they might approach something, then what is the use for these forums? Even after 24 years, I run into things I've never done before. For the most part, my experience can carry me through to a logical solution. When we have others in the trade that we can bounce our ideas off from it starts a whole new dimension of thinking and almost every time, a clearer or better solution is a result of it. These new or different ideas then have a reflection on time and price. This forum wouldn't have much purpose if it wasn't for the questions that lead to swapping ideas and techniques. It makes us all better as a result. (except for the OP that apparently know it all) __________________ Jason E Whipple, General Manager Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio Facebook \| Twitter

02-17-2008, 02:11 PM	#8
orson View Profile orson Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,328) Photos (12) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Kitchen & Bath Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Millersville, PA Posts: 1,328	Re: Anyone Else? I have absolutely no problem answering a how long or how much question if I happen to have anything intelligent to say on the subject. I think it actually helps all of us to give realistic pricing strategies to less experienced contractors(like myslef, fairly new to GCing). When we help people in this way it is one less lowballer out there for us to compete with. I have personaly learned to stop asking how long questions since I get raked over the coals by the mechanicals guys for asking them. Estimating time on plumbing and HVAC is my weakest area, and sometimes I know I am just wasting my time to run my plumber to a jobsite to look at something, however, I still have an obligation to give the customer a realistic estimate or quote. My main problem with this whole sight is that many of the contributors feel the need to give assinine responses to people who ask how much or how long questions rather than just choosing to ignore them if they don't appreciate those types of questions.

02-17-2008, 03:31 PM	#10
troubleseeker View Profile troubleseeker Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (670) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: remodeling general contractor Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 670	Re: Anyone Else? How long or how to, I can understand, but I am always amused by how much. Do you work for $100 per day or $500 per day? Is your overhead 5% or 35% of your work value? Is the wage for help you need in your region of the country $7 per hour or $25 per hour, etc, etc.

02-17-2008, 03:41 PM	#11
orson View Profile orson Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,328) Photos (12) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Kitchen & Bath Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Millersville, PA Posts: 1,328	Re: Anyone Else? [quote=Grumpyplumber;380578] Most experienced pro's know the time and cost of basic projects...[/quote] What about inexperienced pros? Everyone started somehwere. There is no single thing more difficult to do in a new business than determine pricing, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with an inetelligent journeyman level tradesman with some additional broad building trade knowledge going into a custom home or remodeling or spec house building business. I heard someone on this forumn before say that you should have 15 years experience in each trade before you GC. I'm still consfused about how you run a business after you're dead. Last edited by orson; 02-17-2008 at 03:44 PM.

02-17-2008, 04:06 PM	#14
Norrrrrrrrrrrrm View Profile Norrrrrrrrrrrrm Sharp Improvements Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (554) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Sharp Improvements Trade: Remodeling Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wilmington, N.C. Posts: 554	Re: Anyone Else? I don't think it is a bad idea to ask questions here if you have an idea on what you are doing. I think many here are trying to make a living and need to pick up or inrease their skill level. I think it is good for them to get some pro insight and then they can decide if it is for them or not. I am a remodeler and I can do drywall just fine but did not know what to charge. One time I needed a price range to see what drywallers were doing it for to see if I was in the range of being fair to myself and the homeowner. I got good responses and now I have a gauge to go from. I appreciate the time and knowledge from the pro's to freely give their info here to help others who are also trying to live. This website is a huge database of info and help, and I am happy to give any help I can becuase it has been given to me. __________________ Norman Sharp http://www.sharpimprovements.com

02-17-2008, 05:32 PM	#16
skylands View Profile skylands Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (189) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: restoration Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Catskills Posts: 189	Re: Anyone Else? "I am not saying I know everything about everything either, I am just saying that if you don't know how to estimate, you should get someone who does and don't rely on forums such as this" Non of us know everything. But as a group of professionals we should be here for each other. When a new guy joins the plumbers association he's greeted with incouragement. But here the moderators allow him to be slammed for trying to improve himself. In terms of these forums, I think it's pretty easy to spot a landloard, or a night watchman moonlighting. The forums are here. Everyone has access to them and people are going to come here to try to save a buck and bypass us. If you don't want the HO's on the board (which I don't) then this should be a members only board with a password. Otherwise, you have to read the post and determine whether your talking to a HO and respond accordingly. So maby it's time to determine who is allowed to post on these sites. Questions should never be discouraged. It's the answers that need to be carefully examined.

02-17-2008, 07:38 PM	#17
Grumpyplumber View Profile Grumpyplumber Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,165) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Plumber Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,165	Re: Anyone Else? It's a website designed for contractors. Contractors are confronted with statements from customers who tend to generalize or oversimplify their work constantly. They may not realize it, but it can be insulting. There is another forum linked to this one for DIY inquiries, and from what I've seen since joining, DIY's are encouraged to join that forum, dissuaded from asking questions here. There's a comradery here associated with the frustrations and toils of the trades, part of that is the humor...a great way to vent in a forum for contractors. I go to Rome, I don't tell them to act Irish. I go to a website specific to contractors, I don't expect lotsa warm hugs and consideration for my feelings. I have yet to work a jobsite where the GC or foreman has asked us to be more considerate of feelings regarding the answers we give to questions on "how to". Expecting moderators to start editing posts that may not be considerate of the feelings of DIY requests might be a bit extreme...no? Enforcing rules on how to convey your humor here makes me think of all the fun of a condo association full of uptight retiree's with a lot of time on their hands. DIY requests are often easy to spot here...generally a first time post starting a thread to the effect: "I need info on how to frame a house" might be a good indicator. I race to those just for the sure fire chuckles. On the flip side, there are longterm members here who might need advice on a new type project, a major perk to this site is the exchange of information between professionals.

02-17-2008, 08:50 PM	#20
Ron The Plumber View Profile Ron The Plumber Pro Plumber Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,779) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Plumber Trade: Plumber Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,779	Re: Anyone Else? Hold on now, where in my reply does it say orson? So now quote me.

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