2nd Story Addition; In The Winter?

Jason Whipple · 01-17-2008, 04:37 PM

I went to look at an addition yesterday. These people want to add on a second story addition roughly 22'x22'. Here's the catch, they want it to start yesterday if not sooner. They have talked with several other contractors who told them they couldn't start it till spring. These people said it was because there busy, but I'm not sure if thats true. The big rush is because she's due to have a baby in March and doesn't want to deal with construction, dust, and a new baby all at the same time. There budget is about 35k but I feel there is probably more if thats what it takes.

The addition will be directly over there kitchen and the ceiling will have to come out as well because it will not hold the load of a typical floor (it's 2x6's). The addition on the second level will need to be tied in were there is currently two kids bedrooms with MAJOR piles of toys scattered about. Good thing is the kids seem well behaved

.

I told them to expect the kitchen to be closed off for 3 weeks or so and the kids would have to be relocated when we were ready to open up the second floor and rebuild the lay-out. I also told them not to be surprised if a little water got in once in a while until it was dried in. All went well.

My concern is that we are getting some of the worst winter storms we've had in a while up here. She's full blown pregnant, and (by the way) he's a cop in that town. Sound like trouble yet? I know we can pull of the job, but this will be an uncomfortable situation even if done perfectly. I have this fear that the wife (being pregnant caring for two kids, and taking care of hubby, all while here house and kitchen are being tore up) will be to much. She might crack, he'll get concerned, find things that aren't going "perfectly" and BAM! his lawyer friends come in the picture. Did I mention her Dad lives right next door?

What do you think? Would you?

Edit: If you would how would you set it up/protect yourself?

thom · 01-17-2008, 05:09 PM

Back in the late 70's and early 80's, when I lived in Chicago, I did a couple second story additions in the winter. One benefit is you can blow off the snow easier than blowing off the rain.

Generally, we put plates on the existing ceiling joists and built a new floor above. That way we didn't open up the ceiling or re-wire the downstairs.

The way you described, if you really need to open the house, I just wouldn't do it. At least not with them living in it. It won't be possible to heat it. The liability is to great, the price ($72 psf) is to low.

Jason Whipple · 01-17-2008, 05:25 PM

I thought about adding in floor joists. It's a 1920's house with 2x4 rough cut walls. The ceiling is R/C 2x6 with t&g bead board and 1/2" rock over that. Because the span is so long, I would use 10" engineered floor joists to keep the weight down, but I'm not to sure if the old walls can hold it all up. Personally, I'd feel better getting the ceiling out to make it lighter. The original walls are ballon framed past the ceiling about 2'. The exsisting ceiling and new floor would both set on a 1x8 ledger that is let into the wall framing.

Thanks for the help on this!

neolitic · 01-17-2008, 05:33 PM

Have always done the floor like Thom,
and for the same reasons.
Have done two in the winter
with no major problems.
Spring and summer you just trade for
major thunderstorms and toad stranglers.
$72 does sound cheap,
but I'm not looking at it either.
One thing they have to understand
is there's no stopping til it's under roof.
Early baby, preggers jitters or no.

cleveman · 01-17-2008, 05:41 PM

Surely the 2x6 ceiling joists aren't spanning 22'? There isn't a wall or beam in the middle?

neolitic · 01-17-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

.....Personally, I'd feel better getting the ceiling out to make it lighter. The original walls are ballon framed past the ceiling about 2'. The exsisting ceiling and new floor would both set on a 1x8 ledger that is let into the wall framing.
Thanks for the help on this!

Did one like that, two WWI barracks nailed together.
We let in the ledger from the outboard side,
and used hangers for the joist.
Chopped off the rafter tails to get them out of the way
left as much roof deck as we could to make it easier to tarp in
until the deck was done and we could frame up fast.
That ceiling doesn't add that much weight---
you're gonna put another one back anyway.

Joe Carola · 01-17-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

The addition will be directly over there kitchen and the ceiling will have to come out as well because it will not hold the load of a typical floor (it's 2x6's).

Why does the ceiling have to come out? The new joist go along side of them or you put a plate on top of the ceiling joists on the outside and center bearing walls and nail the new joists on top of them. The ceilings don't have to come out unless they are sagging or your doing major renovation to the first floor. Sometimes certain sections of the sheetrock have to come out because of plumbing and heading off, but they don't have to come out.

Quote:

I told them to expect the kitchen to be closed off for 3 weeks or so and the kids would have to be relocated when we were ready to open up the second floor and rebuild the lay-out.

Why, is the kitchen getting remodeled?

Quote:

I also told them not to be surprised if a little water got in once in a while until it was dried in. All went well.

On all Add-A-Levels you don't want water getting in. This is a perfect example of having a good and big enough framing crew that frames AAL's all the time and that they know exactly what to do to keep your house water tight.

oldfrt · 01-17-2008, 05:45 PM

Well,it seems you've covered the worst case scenario,now just walk through the steps of demo and construction in your head and figure how you can remedy each potential disaster.
It's not going to be an easy project by any means,probably get slowed down a lot working around everyone's toys,kitchen,curious kids.
How big is your crew.If it can get closed in fast,say two days,the weather shouldn't be a problem.I'd get all the rafters pre-cut,headers built,
and get everything ready to build before any demo.
Could you use trusses?Plywood and roof can go on in one day.
We've built the two eave walls and got rafters and plywood up after cutting the edge of old roof sheathing and placing studs on the existing top plate before completely ripping the roof off.
There's a lot of ways to approach it,as I'm sure you know.It just has to be thought through a few times to get the best plan down.
Sounds like a lot of head ache for the money though,but every where is different.
Make sure the HO knows all the discomforts that they will incur and write one he** of a contract up to protect yourself.

Jason Whipple · 01-17-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Carola

Why does the ceiling have to come out? The new joist go along side of them or you put a plate on top of the ceiling joists on the outside and center bearing walls and nail the new joists on top of them. The ceilings don't have to come out unless they are sagging or your doing major renovation to the first floor. Sometimes certain sections of the Sheetrock have to come out because of plumbing and heading off, but they don't have to come out.
.

The home is nearly 100 years old. Not having ex-ray vision, I can't really determine the condition of the framing. So, I really don't know if the old 2x4 walls can withstand the weight of a second floor. If it can be done (and I'm finding that out from others) I would still ask that KNOW ONE be in the kitchen area during work hours especially kids. If it all should come out then the reasons should be more obvious.

As for the water issue, I never set myself up for unrealistic expectations. I'm quite sure I can get this done with no mishaps, but to guarantee the customer they won't see a drop is just asking for trouble. I'm not talking about a flood. Just saying there could be a trickle that shows up and not to be alarmed if they see one. I'm taming there expectations so that I don't get a phone call at 1 am because they see a tinny wet spot on there ceiling.

They will be doing the Kitchen over once the addition is done.

Jason Whipple · 01-17-2008, 06:33 PM

I think the cost is very low but I do know they have more and will work out some rough numbers for them to review by Monday if I decide it's doable. I suspect it to be about $100 per sq. ft.

There will be one small bathroom stacked above the first floor bath to minimize cost for plumbing. Additionaly the roof won't require any valley's. It will be built in the same direction and match the existing. Just a basic three tab, 8:12 roof. We wil be adding 3 beedrooms to the space in addition to a very small bath. The bathroom finishes will be purcased by the H/O before the rough in so thats not part of my cost.

Jason Whipple · 01-17-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleveman

Surely the 2x6 ceiling joists aren't spanning 22'? There isn't a wall or beam in the middle?

Not one thing!

Correction: Every 3rd or forth joist there is a 2x4 hung from the rigde and nailed to the ceiling joist.

neolitic · 01-17-2008, 06:45 PM

Sometimes it's amazing what got spanned with what back then.
Hard to knock, it's been working for a hundred years.
Maybe sagging joist didn't bother them as much back then.

A W Smith · 01-17-2008, 07:03 PM

I would NOT cut in a ledger. I would just lop off the wall studs and plate it.

are the existing studs on 16 inch centers? balloon frame? if the studs are already above the ceiling its cake. Shore up the existing ceiling in the middle. Cut off the roof. get an elevation on your existing studs for a new finished ceiling above the existing. Cut off the studs 2 1/2 inches below that new finished ceiling. double plate the top of those cut studs. frame your new deck over all the existing ceiling clear span with TJI's Deck with 3/4 T & G sturdi floor plywood or osb using glue on both the joists and the seams (to weatherproof) cover your deck with tarps go home, second day frame your second floor exterior and center partitions frame your roof. sheath everything, tarp and go home, Third day. install your windows and roof and dry in your walls with tyvek or felt. after your all dried in you can start the interior first floor ceiling demo and fill in all your closet and non bearing partitions. Also extend your interior first floor partitions to your new raised 9 foot ceiling.

Jason Whipple · 01-17-2008, 07:28 PM

Al,

I think you're right about not cutting in a second ledger on the opposite side of the existing. It could leave a really weak point in the framing. Between the two ledgers would be only 2" left.

Raising the ceiling in the 1st floor may cause some headroom problems on the second floor since plan "A" is to match the existing roof line. This may not be possible anyway because if I use TJI's as planed this will also lose headroom and cause a step up from the second floor at the other end of the house. These are new problems I need to consider. I may have to bring the roof at the back of the house up higher than the original. That may look strange with the front of the house being longer than the rear.

I'll have to go back at some point and see if there's enough room to bring up the floor on the second level.

neolitic · 01-17-2008, 07:33 PM

Are the existing ceiling joist notched
over their ledger? Or sitting on it?

A W Smith · 01-17-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

Al,

I think you're right about not cutting in a second ledger on the opposite side of the existing. It could leave a really weak point in the framing. Between the two ledgers would be only 2" left.

Raising the ceiling in the 1st floor may cause some headroom problems on the second floor since plan "A" is to match the existing roof line. This may not be possible anyway because if I use TJI's as planed this will also lose headroom and cause a step up from the second floor at the other end of the house. These are new problems I need to consider. I may have to bring the roof at the back of the house up higher than the original. That may look strange with the front of the house being longer than the rear.

I'll have to go back at some point and see if there's enough room to bring up the floor on the second level.

you can lower the roof of the second story addtion by using shorter walls and making a hat ceiling. If its for example a 6 on 12 pitch you would have a 7 foot wall but two foot of ceiling slope into the hat which would be 8 feet finished ceiling height..

Jason Whipple · 01-17-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neolitic

Are the existing ceiling joist notched
over their ledger? Or sitting on it?

There just sitting on it and the nailed into the wall studs (16" oc)

neolitic · 01-17-2008, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

There just sitting on it and the nailed into the wall studs (16" oc)

You could just fir the top of the ledger
with 2X2 or flat 2X4 and sit your joist on that.

Jason Whipple · 01-17-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A W Smith

you can lower the roof of the second story addtion by using shorter walls and making a hat ceiling. If its for example a 6 on 12 pitch you would have a 7 foot wall but two foot of ceiling slope into the hat which would be 8 feet finished ceiling height..

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this. Ideally, we would like the roof to remain continuous from front to back. I just can't picture what you're suggesting. Do you mean that the ridge would be the same, but the eave's would be higher? That might work.

oldfrt · 01-17-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason W

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this. Ideally, we would like the roof to remain continuous from front to back. I just can't picture what you're suggesting. Do you mean that the ridge would be the same, but the eave's would be higher? That might work.

I think he's suggesting pushing your second floor ceiling joists up into the pitch of the roof instead of across the top plates.

01-17-2008, 04:37 PM	#1
Jason Whipple View Profile Jason Whipple Restoration Crazy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,308) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Restoration Crazy Trade: Restoration & Historic Preservation Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 3,308	2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? I went to look at an addition yesterday. These people want to add on a second story addition roughly 22'x22'. Here's the catch, they want it to start yesterday if not sooner. They have talked with several other contractors who told them they couldn't start it till spring. These people said it was because there busy, but I'm not sure if thats true. The big rush is because she's due to have a baby in March and doesn't want to deal with construction, dust, and a new baby all at the same time. There budget is about 35k but I feel there is probably more if thats what it takes. The addition will be directly over there kitchen and the ceiling will have to come out as well because it will not hold the load of a typical floor (it's 2x6's). The addition on the second level will need to be tied in were there is currently two kids bedrooms with MAJOR piles of toys scattered about. Good thing is the kids seem well behaved. I told them to expect the kitchen to be closed off for 3 weeks or so and the kids would have to be relocated when we were ready to open up the second floor and rebuild the lay-out. I also told them not to be surprised if a little water got in once in a while until it was dried in. All went well. My concern is that we are getting some of the worst winter storms we've had in a while up here. She's full blown pregnant, and (by the way) he's a cop in that town. Sound like trouble yet? I know we can pull of the job, but this will be an uncomfortable situation even if done perfectly. I have this fear that the wife (being pregnant caring for two kids, and taking care of hubby, all while here house and kitchen are being tore up) will be to much. She might crack, he'll get concerned, find things that aren't going "perfectly" and BAM! his lawyer friends come in the picture. Did I mention her Dad lives right next door? What do you think? Would you? Edit: If you would how would you set it up/protect yourself? __________________ Jason E Whipple, General Manager Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio Facebook \| Twitter Last edited by Jason Whipple; 01-17-2008 at 05:03 PM.

01-17-2008, 05:09 PM	#2
thom View Profile thom Thom Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,197) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Thom Trade: General Contractor/Homebuilder Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Albuquerque NM Posts: 3,197	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? Back in the late 70's and early 80's, when I lived in Chicago, I did a couple second story additions in the winter. One benefit is you can blow off the snow easier than blowing off the rain. Generally, we put plates on the existing ceiling joists and built a new floor above. That way we didn't open up the ceiling or re-wire the downstairs. The way you described, if you really need to open the house, I just wouldn't do it. At least not with them living in it. It won't be possible to heat it. The liability is to great, the price ($72 psf) is to low.

01-17-2008, 05:25 PM	#3
Jason Whipple View Profile Jason Whipple Restoration Crazy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,308) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Restoration Crazy Trade: Restoration & Historic Preservation Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 3,308	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? I thought about adding in floor joists. It's a 1920's house with 2x4 rough cut walls. The ceiling is R/C 2x6 with t&g bead board and 1/2" rock over that. Because the span is so long, I would use 10" engineered floor joists to keep the weight down, but I'm not to sure if the old walls can hold it all up. Personally, I'd feel better getting the ceiling out to make it lighter. The original walls are ballon framed past the ceiling about 2'. The exsisting ceiling and new floor would both set on a 1x8 ledger that is let into the wall framing. Thanks for the help on this! __________________ Jason E Whipple, General Manager Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio Facebook \| Twitter

01-17-2008, 05:33 PM	#4
neolitic View Profile neolitic Curmudgeon Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (11,707) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Curmudgeon Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do" Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool" Posts: 11,707	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? Have always done the floor like Thom, and for the same reasons. Have done two in the winter with no major problems. Spring and summer you just trade for major thunderstorms and toad stranglers. $72 does sound cheap, but I'm not looking at it either. One thing they have to understand is there's no stopping til it's under roof. Early baby, preggers jitters or no. __________________ Put your location in your profile! (Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

01-17-2008, 05:41 PM	#5
cleveman View Profile cleveman Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,795) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: custom home building Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Central Iowa Posts: 1,795	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? Surely the 2x6 ceiling joists aren't spanning 22'? There isn't a wall or beam in the middle?

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01-17-2008, 05:45 PM	#8
oldfrt View Profile oldfrt Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,039) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodeling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northwest Connecticut Posts: 2,039	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? Well,it seems you've covered the worst case scenario,now just walk through the steps of demo and construction in your head and figure how you can remedy each potential disaster. It's not going to be an easy project by any means,probably get slowed down a lot working around everyone's toys,kitchen,curious kids. How big is your crew.If it can get closed in fast,say two days,the weather shouldn't be a problem.I'd get all the rafters pre-cut,headers built, and get everything ready to build before any demo. Could you use trusses?Plywood and roof can go on in one day. We've built the two eave walls and got rafters and plywood up after cutting the edge of old roof sheathing and placing studs on the existing top plate before completely ripping the roof off. There's a lot of ways to approach it,as I'm sure you know.It just has to be thought through a few times to get the best plan down. Sounds like a lot of head ache for the money though,but every where is different. Make sure the HO knows all the discomforts that they will incur and write one he** of a contract up to protect yourself. __________________ https://www.facebook.com/pages/John-...94183374011504

01-17-2008, 06:33 PM	#10
Jason Whipple View Profile Jason Whipple Restoration Crazy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,308) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Restoration Crazy Trade: Restoration & Historic Preservation Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 3,308	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? I think the cost is very low but I do know they have more and will work out some rough numbers for them to review by Monday if I decide it's doable. I suspect it to be about $100 per sq. ft. There will be one small bathroom stacked above the first floor bath to minimize cost for plumbing. Additionaly the roof won't require any valley's. It will be built in the same direction and match the existing. Just a basic three tab, 8:12 roof. We wil be adding 3 beedrooms to the space in addition to a very small bath. The bathroom finishes will be purcased by the H/O before the rough in so thats not part of my cost. __________________ Jason E Whipple, General Manager Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio Facebook \| Twitter

01-17-2008, 06:45 PM	#12
neolitic View Profile neolitic Curmudgeon Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (11,707) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Curmudgeon Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do" Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool" Posts: 11,707	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? Sometimes it's amazing what got spanned with what back then. Hard to knock, it's been working for a hundred years. Maybe sagging joist didn't bother them as much back then. __________________ Put your location in your profile! (Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

01-17-2008, 07:03 PM	#13
A W Smith View Profile A W Smith Al Smith Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,392) Photos (20) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Al Smith Trade: Home Improvement contractor since 1983, In building field since 1974, Licensed Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: South River NJ Posts: 2,392	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? I would NOT cut in a ledger. I would just lop off the wall studs and plate it. are the existing studs on 16 inch centers? balloon frame? if the studs are already above the ceiling its cake. Shore up the existing ceiling in the middle. Cut off the roof. get an elevation on your existing studs for a new finished ceiling above the existing. Cut off the studs 2 1/2 inches below that new finished ceiling. double plate the top of those cut studs. frame your new deck over all the existing ceiling clear span with TJI's Deck with 3/4 T & G sturdi floor plywood or osb using glue on both the joists and the seams (to weatherproof) cover your deck with tarps go home, second day frame your second floor exterior and center partitions frame your roof. sheath everything, tarp and go home, Third day. install your windows and roof and dry in your walls with tyvek or felt. after your all dried in you can start the interior first floor ceiling demo and fill in all your closet and non bearing partitions. Also extend your interior first floor partitions to your new raised 9 foot ceiling. __________________ Al Smith http://www.awsmith.com Last edited by A W Smith; 01-17-2008 at 07:08 PM.

01-17-2008, 07:28 PM	#14
Jason Whipple View Profile Jason Whipple Restoration Crazy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,308) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Restoration Crazy Trade: Restoration & Historic Preservation Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 3,308	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? Al, I think you're right about not cutting in a second ledger on the opposite side of the existing. It could leave a really weak point in the framing. Between the two ledgers would be only 2" left. Raising the ceiling in the 1st floor may cause some headroom problems on the second floor since plan "A" is to match the existing roof line. This may not be possible anyway because if I use TJI's as planed this will also lose headroom and cause a step up from the second floor at the other end of the house. These are new problems I need to consider. I may have to bring the roof at the back of the house up higher than the original. That may look strange with the front of the house being longer than the rear. I'll have to go back at some point and see if there's enough room to bring up the floor on the second level. __________________ Jason E Whipple, General Manager Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio Facebook \| Twitter

01-17-2008, 07:33 PM	#15
neolitic View Profile neolitic Curmudgeon Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (11,707) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Curmudgeon Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do" Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool" Posts: 11,707	Re: 2nd Story Addition; In The Winter? Are the existing ceiling joist notched over their ledger? Or sitting on it? __________________ Put your location in your profile! (Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

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