Would You Pay?

 
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:17 PM   #1
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Would You Pay?


Ive had 4 carpenters working for me for a month on an hourly rate, the job was a long distance job so I only visited the site once a week. first week they had not done much but gave lots of excuses, the second week still not much done so i told them they needed to get a move on, 3rd week hardly any work done so warned them that I could not keep them any longer unless they made some progress, 4th week still not enough done and heard they had been coming in late/going early, standing round on their phone while they are there so I finished them.

I have been paying them weekly the following week so I owe then a weeks money now. I stopped them 5 hrs last week as they booked in 16 hrs for loading 11 door - basically carrying them 50 yrds down a corridor and had one of them on the phone shouting and screaming over it

I am alway fair - often called too soft but these lads have really taken the piss, my other lads say I should not pay them any more money and my gut tells me not to but my good nature wants to pay them as I know they are struggling

What would you do?
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:19 PM   #2
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Re: Would You Pay?


You agreed to pay them.


Pay them.

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Old 11-09-2017, 03:21 PM   #3
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Re: Would You Pay?


Pay them if they were hourly. It was your lack of supervision that allowed it to happen.
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:25 PM   #4
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Re: Would You Pay?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 480sparky View Post
You agreed to pay them.


Pay them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TxElectrician View Post
Pay them if they were hourly. It was your lack of supervision that allowed it to happen.
They have lied on their time sheets so have not worked the hours they claim
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:34 PM   #5
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Re: Would You Pay?


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They have lied on their time sheets so have not worked the hours they claim
You'd better damned well have 100% ironclad proof of such. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for a BIG fall.
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:44 PM   #6
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You'd better damned well have 100% ironclad proof of such. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for a BIG fall.
No just what my other lads and the site manager have said but that is just hearsay and not really iron clad.

We have also had a bill from the hotel we put them up in for breaking a chair

Have had to pay a lad a day to put work they did right

the quantity of work they did was around 25% of what i would have expected.

The quality of work was generally not up to an acceptable standard

So I feel they have had my pants down to be honest
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:44 PM   #7
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Re: Would You Pay?


Pay them and for them it's your own fault. Why let it go on for weeks

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Old 11-09-2017, 03:50 PM   #8
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Pay them and for them it's your own fault. Why let it go on for weeks

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It was due to the distance I could only get there once a week, as I said 1st week loads of excuses so benefit of the doubt, 2nd week I explained that they need to get a move on, 3rd week a warning 4th week gone.
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:54 PM   #9
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Re: Would You Pay?


I have had to pay guys for s*** work that I tore out for the same reason you are stating. Lack of supervision. You hired guys that you felt could supervise themselves and they couldn't, you had to learn that on your dime. It happens from time to time. Just fire them and move on.

if it makes you feel better tell him to get the f*** off your job site when you give them their check.

In hindsight I am sure you are kicking yourself in the ass doubly hard for being so patient. I generally don't make it to day 3 with wannabes and drag asses. Although most guys drag ass more than I think is appropriate
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:55 PM   #10
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Re: Would You Pay?


If you just sent them to an address and told them to work, this is what you're gonna get.

Sounds like you needed to set some goals for them right at the git-go, not "We gotta pick up the pace, guys" 3 weeks later.

Pony up, and consider it tuition for the School of Hard Knocks.
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:59 PM   #11
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Re: Would You Pay?


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If you just sent them to an address and told them to work, this is what you're gonna get.

Sounds like you needed to set some goals for them right at the git-go, not "We gotta pick up the pace, guys" 3 weeks later.

Pony up, and consider it tuition for the School of Hard Knocks.
Yes I did set targets and explained that we need to hit them, I accept the blame for not being there but it still leaves a bitter taste.

All my other lads work on a price and earn good money and it raised a red flag straight away when they did not want to work on a price but thats the price you pay sometimes for being too busy
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:02 PM   #12
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Re: Would You Pay?


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It was due to the distance I could only get there once a week, as I said 1st week loads of excuses so benefit of the doubt, 2nd week I explained that they need to get a move on, 3rd week a warning 4th week gone.
You can't not pay simply because they didn't work to your standards.

If that's how getting paid worked a lot of employers would elect not to pay people.

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Old 11-09-2017, 04:05 PM   #13
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Re: Would You Pay?


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You can't not pay simply because they didn't work to your standards.

If that's how getting paid worked a lot of employers would elect not to pay people.

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I think its a 2 way thing - you agree a rate of pay and set out what you expect for that pay, it should work for both parties
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:13 PM   #14
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Re: Would You Pay?


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I think its a 2 way thing - you agree a rate of pay and set out what you expect for that pay, it should work for both parties
It should - but it doesn't. If some dumbass in your employ decides to leave your tools out in the rain to be ruined or a customer's materials, you cannot take that out of his check either.

They are subordinate to you, so that means in essence no matter what that you are responsible for what they do and don't do unfortunately

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Old 11-09-2017, 04:13 PM   #15
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Re: Would You Pay?


Even within legit sub with a company doing time of materials you are pretty much liable to pay really

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Old 11-09-2017, 04:16 PM   #16
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Re: Would You Pay?


Lesson learned. That's why I prefer to stay small.

Eating a slice of pie is better than eating the whole pie and getting sick.
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Old 11-09-2017, 06:03 PM   #17
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Re: Would You Pay?


So if they did superb work in half the time you expected would you have paid more even though they were hourly?

Just as we have to screen customers the same is true for employees

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Old 11-09-2017, 06:09 PM   #18
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Re: Would You Pay?


Tell them you are over budget, and you need a fixed cost for them to complete the work.

Tell them they need to pull off the job, and provide you a firm price, and they will get paid when and if the job is done completely and correctly.

They will fire themselves and if they do not, they will screw themselves.

I doubt you will re-capture the lost revenue, but it will turn the tables on them long enough to make them sweat
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Old 11-09-2017, 06:34 PM   #19
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Re: Would You Pay?


Pay em' at the end of the day this is your fault. If you can't be there why wasn't someone the lead of the job? Daily reports from the lead of progress? If you have this many guys going, why no gps time tracking software?

Not paying is going to end with lawyers that you probably don't have time to deal with. Get rid of em', get the job finished, keep things at a pace you can control. I turn down as much work as we take on for this exact reason. Also, yes these guys took full advantage of you and you should be pissed. Good luck, I've been in similar situations, the stress is far worse than the 16 hour days to catch up.
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Old 11-09-2017, 06:58 PM   #20
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Re: Would You Pay?


Quote:
Originally Posted by carpenter uk View Post
Ive had 4 carpenters working for me for a month on an hourly rate, the job was a long distance job so I only visited the site once a week. first week they had not done much but gave lots of excuses, the second week still not much done so i told them they needed to get a move on, 3rd week hardly any work done so warned them that I could not keep them any longer unless they made some progress, 4th week still not enough done and heard they had been coming in late/going early, standing round on their phone while they are there so I finished them.

I have been paying them weekly the following week so I owe then a weeks money now. I stopped them 5 hrs last week as they booked in 16 hrs for loading 11 door - basically carrying them 50 yrds down a corridor and had one of them on the phone shouting and screaming over it

I am alway fair - often called too soft but these lads have really taken the piss, my other lads say I should not pay them any more money and my gut tells me not to but my good nature wants to pay them as I know they are struggling

What would you do?
After the 1st week of them proving they couldn't operate without supervision that was when you had the opportunity to put some in place if you couldn't be there or cut your losses... hard to understand how you allowed the excuses to extend to four weeks...

Before you say you couldn't afford to hire supervision (or make an every other day visit yourself despite the distance if you didn't want to pony up the dough), or designate one among them as supervisor with an increased hourly for the responsibility, consider a months worth of math X 4 guys you're now out at your estimated 25% productivity rate, schedule mayhem and affects on your customer...

What's fair at this point is paying them like you said you would not compounding the issue by you now not doing what you said you would... unfortunately, the rest is on you...

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Last edited by KAP; 11-09-2017 at 07:13 PM.
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