What Are Your Legal Frustrations?

MissDani

Hi! I am new to this board. I am a paralegal for contruction law company and I am also the office manager for a contractor. I am performing research for some of our clients and hope you can help.

I am trying to find out what other contractors frustrations are when it comes to the law. Wether it is with your lawyer from the level of attention to you get to the way they handle your business, to specific types of laws that you have issues with that affect you as a contractor. I also want to know what were the circumstance that caused you to hire an attorney and what the results were good or bad. What is your legal "wish list."

Any information you can give me would be much appreciated! Thanks all!
Daniela

Double-A

MissDani, welcome to our forums.

I would ask you to read our advertising rules, as this post seems to be walking a very fine line at the moment.

I'm not going to close at this point, but will watch it closely. That doesn't mean our Admin, Nathan won't close it.

Please pay attention to the following excerpts:

• Participants may not direct others to contact them regarding their product or services or future (possible) products or services, or any product or services they are, or have been, associated with.
• Participants may not solicit the membership for feedback or suggestions on their product or services.
• Participants may not solicit users for any project or purpose external to the forum; public, private, or commercial. Most importantly our member base is not a resource to be "mined" by individuals, groups, or businesses, for profit or not for profit. Further; If you SPAM our members in any manner, your account will be disabled.

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"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

L. B. Condulet

It should be obvious to anyone that Miss D. is not soliciting business, she's clearly on a fact finding mission, so let's answer her questions.

1. Since I'm always right, my legal issues involve collections.

2. I would like an attorney that could write a letter demanding payment without demanding I come in and pay for an idiotic consultation, I want to pick up the phone, call him and for $100 have him send a harshly worded letter.

3. For once I'd like a lawyer that doesn't feel the need to post his degrees and credentials all over the frigg'n walls, that is so moronic, it makes me embarrassed for him.

4. Don't try to scare me and exaggerate the case, I really hate this.

5. Quit padding the bills.

woodmagman

How about billable hours.......that does not mean the time it took you to brushing the cheese and crackers from your 1000 dollar shirt or blouse, have to not be non-gender specific as I am addressing a law community.....

Celtic

....does that mean gender specific???

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woodmagman

...

kbsparky

The most important issue we have concerns collections from deliquent customers, and the proper filing of (mechanics)liens.

Our service area covers parts of 3 different states, and of course, each state has its own set of rules and hoops to jump through.

Ed the Roofer

To be a realist, and to not just come off as a Yes Man, making you feel that your case has as much merit that our own self-indulged egos have already allowed it to get to.

Options:
Lien or immediate suit for breach of contract payment terms.

(As you can see, collections of bad dept will be utmost in our desires,)

A review of contract phraseology and boiler-plate terminology.

When to use one option versus one that varies slightly.

Do not allow your client to proceed without an enforceable contract, but even more importantly, rather than have them learn from the school of hardknocks,

Address the circumstances that "Will" ineviteably occur during contractor homeowner or contractor/GC relationships, and how to limit the damages.

Often times, even when we discover that something is going contractually astray, we feel the ethical or legal obligation to continue on praying for a workable and tolerable outcome.

My idea I recently had presented to m y accountant, and this advice goes hand in hand for an attorney, is to involve the contractors they would like to inform, by providing an open invitation seminar.

Go over the basics:
Have a little snack break
Allow for a free-flowing Q & A period to develop, without it turning into one specific contractors exclusive consultation.

Generalities would be welcome, but more precise examples of actual scenarios would be more impressive and provide benefits for all attending.

Results for both sides involved.:
A more educated base of contractors, who can button down their "contractual ship and relations" better and more legally acceptably.

An attorney firm who may now be considered the "Contracting" Expert in your local area.

After all, a contractor who is previously more knowledgeable and capable of doing the things properly, will undoubtedly wind up being more often victorious in the end. That then makes for a more satisfied client base and additional referrals.

Also, and this is a big one! Return the danged phone calls! Even if you have to enable your para-legal to puppet your responses due to time restrictions, at least some sense of emotional fragility has been soothed.

We don't need a freakin appointment for every stinking question that needs to be asked, just so the billable clock clock can continue ticking in 6 minute increments.

Ed

MissDani

Wow thanks for the information and thanks for understanding that I wasn't spamming. I specifcally didn't mention the companies I work for so that you all would know I was not a spammer.

So it seems the main issue comes down to money and billing and collections.

You all mentioned padding of billing. What do you consider padding?

What about the collections aspect do you think works and doesn't work with your attorneys?

Ed the roofer said "Address the circumstances that "Will" ineviteably occur during contractor homeowner or contractor/GC relationships, and how to limit the damages" Does that mean you don't want to hear what could happen only what WILL happen?

Proper filing of mechanic liens was mentioned. What have been the problems you have had in this regard and what would you like to be done?

Would you say that set prices for reaccuring issues would be better, like a standard price to send out a demand letter?

I like the idea of the seminar and I laughed out loud about the posting of credentials. THey want to see all responses so I get the pleasure of giving the attorneys that feedback! LOL!

Again, thanks for the information and I look forward to hearing more!

Grumpy

My frustrations with the law? It only applies to some people. It seems like it is only the honest business man who makes an honest mistakes is who gets slammed. It seems like those who intentionally cheat get away with it time and time again.

Lawyers tend to complicate things. They bill hourly, it's how they get paid. More hours = more money. Once the lawyers get involved everybody loses, except the lawyers.

Well we have lots of legal frustrations. Collections, although we seldom get stiffed and often times when we do just the threat of lien gets us paid. This shouldn't cost $500 should it?

Employement legalities is a major burden, administratively speaking. Is he or isn't he an employee? Am I properly documenting AND reporting everything I should be with the numerous numerous agencies of which I must document and report? Why is this all so complicated (pshhh governments!)

About lawyers... why is it that WE contractors have to give fixed bids but lawyers bill outrageous hours? I want to know upfront what I am spending, or I don't spend it. Last lawyer I almost hired had it right. He said... "I am going to charge you $x to file suit. This is an administrative cost to file all the paper work and includes all the filing fees. I am then going to charge you x% for my time if you lose the suit, but 33% if you win it. We will add that 33% for legal fees and if we win the suit, you will win the legal fees. You will also be responsible to pay me even if we do not collect your judgement."

Now I didn't hire him because it was lose lose for me... but there's a guy who knows his business. Kudos to him. I think I would have hired him if he said "If you don't get paid I don't get paid."

Regardless there can be no padding if we are given fixed pricing. Pad it upfront if necessary, we all do. If the lawyer is showering and thinks to himself "Hmm I wonder if we used this strategy on the Johnson case tomorrow." that shouldn't be billable. I am constantly thinking of ways to improve our offerings to our customers and ways to overcome specific challenges within our budgetary confines. That's my duty as a professional and as a business manager.

A set pricing schedule is a must for most tasks involved. Let's face it, you already know how long it will take to send out a letter or file a lien, just like most of us know how long it will take for us to <insert trade here>.

Here's how it *could* work if the lawyer wanted to stream line it. Customer sends (fax email etc) a request for a specific letter, say a collection letter. Customer includes any supporting documents, say invoices and contracts. Lawyer or lawyers' assistant calls customer to briefly (10-15 minutes) discuss options "Should we send the formal letter or the harsh letter?" "Ok we will send you an invoice for $x with the copy of that letter". Lawyers assistant drafts the document, lawyer signs it, assistant sends it out with the invoice. Everyone is happy. No suprises.

You will see by reading many of my posts I am all about processes and methods of getting things done. You can develope a process for any task which must be performed, it's up to your firm however to decide if they will use a cumbersome method that keeps them rich or a stream lined method that makes common tasks easy to do quickly.

Letters should be a set price. Filing a lien should be a set price. X number of minutes should be involved with each. We should get a courtesy call if we are to exceed those minutes and additional charges begin to apply. How could minutes go up? The dead beat who isn't paying has his lawyer call you and you guys talk for 15 minutes. That should be a gimme, and should be included. However if these conversations happen again and again, well we should be called in advance "I'm spending alot of time on this Grumpy, they are fighting it. I'm going to have to charge extra, but I recommend we take the next step and... "

We only desire the same courtesies that we must extend to our own customers. If we got hired to do what ever job, then submit an invoice for extra monies, we had better document those monies in advance or we WILL have a problem collecting. Even if the customer pays they may be disgruntled, and nobody wants a disgruntled customer. heck I am willing to bet, as you are a construction legal professional you have probably seen your fare share of collection issues due to improper documentation of additional work.

Attorneys can sometimes be salesmen, and in it for themselves often encouraging us to persue the avenue that pads their pocket the most. Isn't there some ethical rules against this? I mean is the difference between half a $mil and 600k a year really that much we have to be robbed by you? Some of us already being robbed by our customers, vendors and employees.

That's my problem with doctors and lawyers and basically anyone I go to for help. I can't trust someone who is in it for them, they've got to be in it for me. They are my advisors and confidants (sp?). I tell them fears and pains I wouldn't tell anyone else, and sometimes those pains can be easily twisted for the benefit of the lawyer/doctor.

Just for an example, I am probably ditching my accountant if he doesn't give me a fixed price this year. It seems like he is simply charging me a percentage of my revenue when I can't imagine the volume of work he needs to do increases at all. Everything is done for him, all he has to do is review my reports prepare the returns based on those reports and file. It really seems like the same work year after year. I could see if he had to compile the reports himself or do any data entry, but this is not the case. That's just an example his pricing games are going to cost him a customer.

MissDani

How much do you all spend (average) in legal fees a year?

And is that what you expected and if not, what would a more realistic amount be? (yes, in a perfect world the answer would be nothing of course!)

Name the most expensive legal matter you have had to deal with to date, and what do you think was the reason it was so costly? Example: was it the amount of the hourly fees, the time it took, the complexity of the matter? Were you satisfied with the results?

Also, a little helpful information to you all for being so helpful to me.

Most states have a Supreme Court of Attorney regulations office. If you ever feel your legal fees are unfair, this is where you take that complaint. Also, big companies submit guidelines to their attorneys. These guidelines state what they will NOT pay for basically. They just list it. For instance, "We will not pay for any time for: reviewing files, administrative work for attorneys which should already be included in the hourly fee, meetings between attorneys and paralegals to discuss the case, drafting of memos, e-mails and letters with no descriptions of subject, date, and matter."

Most attorneys will accept these guidelines if they are realistic and fair. If you have been with your attorney long enough, it should be a fair consideration.

Hope that helps a little!

mickeyco

Okay, here's a problem I have, it's with the toll prices here in Illinois, the rates are arbitrary and I can't get answers from the Illinois Tollway Authority even though I have sent them tons of eMails (I have a script that sends an eMail to them everyday with the same questions). Here's the problem, for example, a toll is .50 for a car, motorcycle, pickup, etc. if you have an Ipass ($1 if you don't), that's .25 per axle according to the posted signs. A while back I was driving a dualie (pickup truck with 4 tire on the rear axle instead of 2, not an extra axle), and was charged $1.50 for each toll and a few weeks ago I was bringing a tractor on a single axle trailer down to Indiana and was charged 1.65 for each toll, don't know how they came up with that figure. You see the problem, are they charging by the axle as stated or by the number of tires or the weight of the vehicle? Why does it cost the same for a much lighter motorcycle with only 2 tires as a heavier car with 4 tires? You see what's happening here, the "man" is trying to take me down either by nickel and diming me to death or frustrating me. Not sure if this is necessarily a legal problem but I may need a criminal attorney if I don't get some answers.

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Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

MissDani

I understrand your frustrations. The other day I got a ticket even though I have a transponder for the express tollway and now I have to spend time dealing with it!

I wouldn't waste money on an attorney. And you wouldn't really need a criminal attorney for this. A good general practice attorney that can write scarey letters is good enough and way cheaper. But I don't think anything really illegal is going on. It just sounds like a mistake or misunderstanding. I would contact the department of transportation, as well as the tollway autorities. I would write a letter or physically go down there. I don't know about Illionois but in Colorado, we have and office where you can go to pay tickets or dispute tickets. See if you can get on their docket and go talk to a referee. Sometimes you have to be very assertive to get things done. And a good letter can do wonders too.

Good luck!

Ed the Roofer

Dani,

What ultimate goal do you have in mind here with your questions?

Are you trying to discover the issues from a contractors point of view, to enable your firms legal staff to better position themselves in gaining legal business from your local contractors?

Or, are you here to express, non-specifiic legal advice to the contractor forum?

I am not asking to set you up to be banned, but if the 2nd reason is a part of registering here, would an attorney from the firm be available to respond in generalities to questions and concerns posed by the contractors on this forum?

Ed

MissDani

Dear Ed,

I think that is a fair think to ask. I would have to review the rules again to see if there is anything about that, but I would certainley be willing to ask if an associate or paralegal would be available to answer some questions for you all during this research period. They are kind of careful about offering legal advice, but I think there would be no harm in generalities. Let me look into it.

And to answer your first question better; first, we do market research all year long to find out what practice areas are the most in need at the moment. And yes, in a sense we always want to know what people like and dislike about their lawyers so we can try and better ourselves. But the main issue is that the firm actually has 32 different practice areas, construction being at the very bottom. It is the smallest area, not only because it is newest but because the firm has not put a whole lot of attention into us. Many of our attorneys are heavily involved in civic duty and pro bono work. We also have several members who sit on various councils. The firm is very agressive in seeking out consumer problems, gripes of business owners or industries and then attempting to improve these issues by suggesting changes or creating guidelines where an area of law fails to cover it. If I can find some issues in this industry that are in need of attention, I can suggest the firms civic involvement drawing attention to the needs of the contractors and construction companies while also getting the firm to take notice of the construction law department. Does that make sense?

So that is why I was asking what are your biggest issues when it comes to construction law. Things you would like to see changed. I was hoping that asking about your experiences with your own attorneys, I would get a better idea of what this is. And I also get an idea of what we could be doing better or not doing etc.

Ok sorry for the long post but I want to be as accurate and clear as possible so I everyone knows I am not soliciting business or doing anything that violate the board rules..I hope! Again, I really appreciate you welcoming me and helping me with this. As the new gal in the department, I am trying to impress my bosses, I am sure you can understand!

Ed the Roofer

Fair enough answer.

I will put some additional thought into this, as I recently submitted a similar query on another roofing only forum I visit.

I will paste that question here for you to reply to.

Ed

Here is the first portion and then I will add some more:

Another good topic, requiring a legal disclaimer, would be how to set up and utilize various contract legal boiler-plate phrases, which would be legally viable and not one sided.

What goes into making a good contract-proposal, estimate, specifications, etc.....?

Ed

Next follow up post:

General description of work
Price
Start and completion dates and extenuating circumstances
Permits, Codes and Local Laws
Specific requirements for materials and workmanship
Payment terms
Signature of acceptance and copies for all parties
General Conditions and Property Owners Duties
Acceptable substitutions
Delays
Liscencing
Insurance
Bonds
Hidden, Concealed and Unforeseeable conditions
Extras
Subcontractor and employees
Arbitration
Legal Fees
Interest and late fees
Termination and cancellation
Warranties and Guarantees, both manufacturers and companies responsibilities
Notices
Method of determining costs of additional work
Severability
In job progress for customer satisfaction report
End of job final evaluation for customer satisfaction
Definition of Substantial Completion
Definition of progress points reached to determine when tiered payments are to be made
Cost per hour per man for any Time Plus Materials work required
Cost per lineal foot or square foot or any other unit to be charged for needed as an option or upgrade
3 Day Right of Recission Clause

This is all I can think of off the top of my head and slightly cheating and looking at the current proposal on my desk. I am sure that there are many more valid points to be clarified or added and other ones that may offer alternative conclusions and bias.

Ed