What The #&@! Is Going On With Employee Wages?

Heritage

I think some of you guys are an effin joke. Honestly.

You talk/act like as if you have no idea how this industry works. You can't discern the difference between a licensed carpenter and a licensed renovator/GC? Up here, the Ministry issues licenses to all trades.

Licensed carpenter means= x number of hours of on-the-job experience + passed the ministry exam, police clearance and criminal check.

So when I ask for a licensed carpenter I know that the ministry has already done the homework for me and I don't have to ask the guy "what's the difference between jack and king stud?" and all the other b.s. questions some of you like wasting your time asking during job interviews. Means somebody, somewhere said "This guy is certified to be a licensed carpenter".

So I have to pay him more because he has actually proven that he meets the requirements for what I'm asking?

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Toronto General Contractor-Renovation Blog-Contractor on Facebook-Renovation on twitter-Contractor Youtube

Heritage

It makes me more employable, which was the point I was making. Recognition.

So you wouldn't hire Holmes or Pennington huh? People spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get their company on T.V., I did it and got paid for it

Don't hate the player homie...hate the game

__________________
Toronto General Contractor-Renovation Blog-Contractor on Facebook-Renovation on twitter-Contractor Youtube

Heritage

Never as an employee, you want to compare incomes?

__________________
Toronto General Contractor-Renovation Blog-Contractor on Facebook-Renovation on twitter-Contractor Youtube

Zinsco

I wouldn't let that idiot wash my truck.

smeagol

Holmes is too dumb to cut common rafters. Shows up for work in a wifebeater. There is clip of pennington on loveline and he is afraid of adam's construction question but he make up for it by yelling real loud all the time.

Darwin

wonder why?



Cuz u not payin' enuff to get a great subcontractor!





unless, of course, if you are looking for an employee, that's another matter...

Darwin

pennington?

he he he!

c'mon!

ARI001

Here are the national averages as reported by ENR for OCT. 2009
These are higher than the VEC numbers but you can take your pick.

Current Costs
ENR's most recent Construction Cost Index, Building Cost Index, Materials Cost Index, which are updated monthly. Tables include monthly and annual percent changes.
Construction Costs
Inflation measured by the CCI dropped to an annual rate of 0.3% from 2.4% in August and 5.3% last May. 20-CITY:
1913 = 100 OCT. 2009
Index Value % change
Month % change
Year Construction Cost 8596.31 +0.1 -0.3 Common Labor 18334.87 +0.2 +2.0 WAGE $/HR. 34.84 +0.2 +2.0



Building Costs
The BCI has fallen 2.2% below a year ago as the index was crushed by a 9.4% decline in materials costs. 20-CITY:
1913 = 100 OCT. 2009
Index Value % change
Month % change
Year Building Cost 4761.92 -0.1 -2.2 Skilled Labor 8255.05 +0.1 +1.9 WAGE $/HR. 45.82 +0.1 +1.9



Materials Costs
Cement prices’ modest year-to-year gain was overwhelmed by steep price cuts for steel and lumber. 20-CITY:
1913 = 100 OCT. 2009
Index Value % change
Month % change
Year Materials 2627.51 -0.3 -9.4 CEMENT $/TON 101.41 0.0 +1.1 STEEL $/CWT 43.36 -0.4 -11.0 LUMBER $/MBF 395.83 +0.2 -6.5

Tom Struble

well then a big shot like that should have no problem payin 75 an hour

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Tom

DeanV

Another example of people not understanding where eachother are coming from.

For an employee, Heritage is offering great money in my opinion. Now, a huge company may be able to pay more.

For sub-contractor money, it sounds like about average, but clearly he is not talking sub money.

For the figures cited by ARI001, are those employee wages or company billing rates?

ARI001

Where I'm at that equals contractors license, which equals business entity in order to get said license, which equals sub-contractor.

The formula here reads: X number of verifiable hours or years experience + references + passed state issued exams (dependent on license class) + successful completion of basic business/contractor education course + proven financial responsibility + background check = Contractors license

Contractors licenses are only issued to businesses. Trade licenses (certificates) are for specialty trades such as electrical, plumbing, HVAC and are issued to qualifying individuals.

ARI001

Base wages including benefits.

Heritage

Well there you go, it's not that different North/South of the border. You just explained yourself to yourself. Now if that Licensed Carpenter wanted to act as a GC then said carpenter would also have to hold the license for "building renovator". Having a carpenter's license doesn't automatically make you a sub.

The Ministry of Housing and Municipal Affairs Licenses are the only ones that count. You could have all the verifiable experience in the world, degrees, diplomas, certificates 'till kingdom come but until you get your License and pass THEIR exam then you are not recognized. If a carpenter can count himself as a "Lead carpenter" then he should have no problem passing the exam and receiving his license.

If you hire a PM who is Gold Seal Certified is he automatically a sub?
If you take your truck to the shop and the guy doing the work on your truck is a licensed mechanic is he automatically a sub for the shop owner?
If you go to a restaurant and the guy who cooks your food has a "food handling" certificate from the Health Ministry is he automatically a sub to a restaurant owner?

Licenses and certificates only mean that you have met the criteria by some governing body to practice your trade. That doesn't get you work, it doesn't make you an over-night entrepeneur, it doesn't mean all of a sudden you have general liability insurance, a registered business, a GST number, etc.

Some of you have turned this whole thing into an argument fueled by assumptions.

Licensed anything = Sub.

So the second any of your employees gets a license their fees should be $75/hr huh?

Which leads me to the other concern:

Here's a link from a Government of Canada website-

http://www.ontariojobfutures.ca/profile7271.html

7271 Carpenters

Carpenters construct, erect, install, maintain and repair structures and components of structures made of wood, wood substitutes and other materials. Some carpenters, such as finish carpenters, do detailed work requiring a high level of skill.
Common Job Titles
Typical Employers Apprentice Carpenter
Carpenter
Finish Carpenter
Journeyman/woman Carpenter
Maintenance Carpenter
Renovation Carpenter
Rough Carpenter
interior and finishing construction firms
self-employment
building construction firms
maintenance departments of factories, plants and other organizations


Selected Main Duties


Carpenters perform some or all of the following duties:

• Read and interpret blueprints, drawings and sketches to determine specifications and calculate requirements;
• Prepare layouts in conformance to building codes, using measuring tools;
• Measure, cut, shape, put together materials made of wood, wood substitutes and other materials;
• Build foundations, install floor beams, lay sub-flooring and erect walls and roof systems;
• Fit and install trim items, such as doors, stairs, moulding and hardware;
• Maintain, repair and renovate residences and wooden structures in mills, mines, hospitals, industrial plants and other establishments;
• Supervise apprentices and other construction workers;
• Prepare cost estimates for clients.

Carpenters are needed at each stage of a construction project, from the rough carpentry required in building forms to hold new concrete to adding detailed finishing touches such as mouldings. Accordingly, projects can range from indoor to outdoor work. As in other construction trades, prolonged standing, climbing, bending, and kneeling often are necessary. On exterior construction sites, there may be exposure to a variety of weather conditions. Some carpenters change employers each time they finish a construction job.

Education/Training

Trade certification for this occupation is available in Ontario but it is not a compulsory work requirement for the occupation in the province. However, it does indicate a certain level of achievement that is required by many employers. Inter-provincial (Red Seal) trade certification, which allows qualified carpenters to work in other provinces and territories, is also available in Ontario.

Completion of a three to four-year apprenticeship program or a combination of over four years of work experience in the trade and some high school, college or industry courses in carpentry is usually required to be eligible for trade certification.

Entry to apprenticeship requires a job and usually completion of Grade 12. The apprentice applies directly to the employer, union or joint industry committee for an apprenticeship opening. Students who have completed Grade 10 have an opportunity to become registered apprentices while finishing high school under the Ontario Youth Apprenticeship Program. Alternatively, entry into apprenticeship can be pursued through pre-apprenticeship training.

Employment Prospect

Over the next five years: Average
Employment for this occupation is expected to grow about as fast as the average for all occupations through the year 2009. Employment for carpenters is depended to a large degree on construction activity, which is expected to growth over the forecast period.

New materials and construction techniques are transforming carpentry. New tools, such as nailers and sanders with electronic speed control, reduce fatigue and make carpenters more efficient. New building techniques, such as plastic concrete forms, also affect the skill requirements and the demand for carpenters. Carpenters will have to be more familiar with the use of prefabricated components, such as pre-hung doors and windows, and prefabricated wall panels and stairs, which can be installed very quickly. With pre-assembly, there will be an increased need to understand specific subsystems (e.g., floor systems, wall systems). It is expected that computer skills at a higher level of complexity will soon become an essential occupational skill, enabling carpenters to electronically reference plans and designs.

Characteristics of Occupation

Estimated Employment in 2004 39200
General Characteristics (%) Male 98 Female 1 Full-Time 92 Part-Time 7 Self Employed 36 Employees 62 Usual place of work 33 Worked at home 4 No fixed workplace address 61
Main Industries of Employment (%) Prime contracting (construction) 48All Other Industries 51
Employment by Region (%) This
Occupation (%) All
Occupations Ottawa 7 10Kingston - Pembroke 5 3Muskoka - Kawarthas 6 2Toronto 34 44Kitchener - Waterloo - Barrie 10 9Hamilton - Niagara Peninsula 10 10London 4 5Windsor - Sarnia 5 5Stratford - Bruce Peninsula 4 2Northeast 6 4Northwest 4 1

Income



Additional Information Sources

Addtional information about this occupation can be obtain from the following web sites:

• Council of Ontario Construction Associations
• Ontario Construction Secretariat
• Construction Sector Council
• Ontario Home Builders' Association
• Interprovincial Standards "Red Seal" Program
• Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities

__________________
Toronto General Contractor-Renovation Blog-Contractor on Facebook-Renovation on twitter-Contractor Youtube

BattleRidge

I dont get whats the big deal about the 35 an hour anyway if its t an m? I never thought making 80k a year without having to big and stress and market was that big of a joke? This Zinsco guy is a joke btw. Why dont you post your tax returns if they are so much more then 150k.

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www.battleridgebuilders.com

ARI001

Heritage,

You misunderstood my post. There is no license for a carpenter only for specialty trades and that is more a certificate than a license. Typically people holding those "masters" licenses or certificates are paid higher wages then you are offering and are also generally members of responsible management for the company they are employed by. These types of licenses require and additional 3 years of classroom education in addition to verifiable years as an apprentice and state issued examinations upon completion of the aforementioned requirements. Once the license or certificate is obtained the state requires additional continuing education of X amount of hours per year in order to renew the license.

The requirements you have are different. Here you must form a business entity (sole proprietor, LLC, Corporation, General Partnership, Joint Venture) in order to get a contractors license. The board does not issue contractors licenses to individuals only to businesses. The billing rates for a business will be higher than the rates you are offering for reasons that should be obvious to you.

Your statistics appear to be out dated. The averages I posted are for October of 2009 and are updated monthly. These as stated in a previous post are the base rate including fringe benefits in this country. Those rates are an average and meant for informative purposes.

Mike Finley

This stuff must be all made up I guess?

The first graph shows the range for a lead.

The 2nd one shows the salary trend of the pay scale at a high in Jan 2007 to a low as of July 2009

The 3rd one if you divide by 2080 hours for a full time employee shows a lead around $22-$27 an hour.

THESE ARE NATIONAL AVERAGES.

NATIONAL ...... AVERAGES.

Mike Finley

Here is another one taken from one of our industires trade magazines, taken in 2007/2008. The wages you could assume are a bit high considering when they were surveyed compared to now.

Keep in mind this is RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION, not Commercial or Union or prevailing wage work.

Now are we all on the same page?

Mike Finley

So when a guy says he is offering $35 an hour for a lead carpenter employee position we can all agree that that rate is a lot higher than the national average here in the states?

J F

yes, great pay in fact

so is it an employee? or a contractor?

would you agree that $35 for a legit contractor is very low? or is that good/high as well?

Zinsco

Simply posting statistics without explaining how those statistic were gathered, weighted, normalized and adjusted is not very useful.