Well How About This

Tom M

I have done only a few small jobs since July, my business has slowed big the last year and a half. Its like getting just enough work to almost pay the bills and then it stops. Sept. I get a call from a GC I used to do sub work for to fill time. Its second floor addition on a ranch and they need a new roof and siding on the whole house. I tell myself I have no choice the bills are mounting I need work. I havent done work as a sub for this type of work in a while but I should still be able to knock it out and at least work. The house has a 12ft drop from front elevation to the back so the second floor is a full 3 stories from the back and no ladders reach the second floor without putting ladder on the lower roof. The whole job was a hassle I havent had to deal with in a long time. Fixing valleys already done that the stone contractors broke, plumbers with the pipes through the roof, the framers struggled to complete the corners of the eaves then moveing the truck every few minutes. There were days where I got almost nothing on the wall. And other than the plumber and the boss of the framing crew no one spoke english. Anyway the house is done.
Here's why this line of work sucks: 13 years ago in my early days of self employment I installed as a sub for a former boss who only did new construction. So I know the mentality and the execution needed when there is little money. My former boss would pay something like 65/ sq siding plus difficulty factors plus more if there is foam, decorative stuff ......200 sq for soffit, 1.10 per ft aluminum anyway this job took 22sq siding, 11sq soffit and 6 rolls of coil. I could probably count on both hands the amount of full panels that were installed--it was cut up. So 22@65, 200@11 and at least 150-200ft per roll or 1200ft of coil all equates to about 4900 base cost plus. Today my number is 6,500.00 Im fighting with this guy cause he wants to pay me 100 per sq-----3600 for the whole thing. He says is he could have gotten it done for half this, he wanted me cause my work was always good and this client is difficult. I have had a rush of estimates in the last month 14 in all but no contracts, decks, renovations, dormers and 1 other siding. I can gripe all day about how 13 years later I cant even do something I have done in the past for paying bills. I will most likely not be doing anymore siding again unless its for my own renovation project. The sad thing is I know this GC is correct and someone else will do it for less. This is why I got into renovations, alteration and remodeling the mutts that out there doing work like this for more like that is sickening. I am getting my bottom line cost at 5k but no profit here since my botton line is well above the competition.

ProWallGuy

I'm curious as to how or why anyone does anything without an agreed upon (before work starts) price. I don't touch a tool until whoever is paying me has agreed (IE signature) to my price.

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jcbdog

I agree with you that some of the prices on the sub-level have either gone down or (in most cases) stayed flat over the last few years, but what struck me most about what you're saying is that it sounds like you did not agree on a price up front and are now fighting for more than the GC wants to pay. If you didn't agree up front then THAT was your key mistake because you are then completely at the mercy of whoever you perform the work for. If you did agree upfront and are just unhappy with the price, then I suppose you can try to appeal to the GC's "human" side. Good luck with that...

One other thought. With things being as slow as they are across the country prices are going to drop because people just need to work. Where you maybe have an advantage over some other subs is that you actually understand the whole job. Maybe, in the future, you can make some deal where you get paid a little extra to take care of some of the supervision duties while you're onsight. If you can be more useful to the GC then it should increase your value.

Tom M

The deal is I know the guy for many years he is now a code offical in 2 towns and GC'S still on the side. At the start, I said Im not working for some going rate piece work and he immediatley came back with the fact he was not looking for a cheap job. As if the money he was offering is a gift. He wanted me cause I had a more meticluous eye for detail and the customer is a pain in the azz. Im more irritated at the disregard for seperating the responsibilities on the job half was existing work. There were to many people on that job in the way of one another. Doing some GC'ing myself from time to time I realize the challange of bidding projects in advance for other trades so I am understanding to a point. He lives in a square foot world. I live in a task world, if there are things like roof, siding, tile and drywall that are cut up I know the cost has to be adjusted but a guy like this thinks everything is included no matter what. The framers dont charge him any different to install the windows if they are on the job at the same time. Imagine that, I would easily have number for that in my quote. I think its the 6-8 man crew thing that many trades employee these days. What can be absorbed and accomplished quickly for several guys is more of a job for 2-3 guys. In the end its my attitude that the cost be similar. Whether I had 6 guys do something in half the time as 3 guys it would cost the same. The money has declined in so many places in construction the time saved in the overhead of the larger crew is the cost factor in the job. The wiggle room is not there.

Floordude

As you know you will not be doing work for this GC anymore, hold your ground and your integrity!!!

Hand him and invoice for your services, and make sure that invoice is what your business needs to provide the services you do. Part ways and keep your pride!!! The extra cost is why he wanted you, instead of the guys he usually uses, that are dirt cheap(what he is wanting to pay you) and have poor quality and customer service. Your not his employee, your a business, and this is business, not charity work.

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Grumpy

Why did you start a job without FIRST having an agreed to price, or at least an agreed to price list?

That just baffles me when I see complaints like this. I can not wrap my mind around why someone would agree to WORK but not have an agreement to get PAID.

Legally who is to say who is in the right? You really have no grounds for any sort of legal action. You can try to play hard ball but chances are you'll just get laughed at. I'd like to encourage you to stand your ground, and I do encourage you to put forth as much effort as you can to collecting... but I think in the end you won't get paid your full ammount.

Chalk it up to tuition from the school of hard knocks and go buy a book of form contracts from nebs or staples or something.

Stone Mountain

In 1982, the first year we were into snow plowing, I did private 2 car driveways for $200.00.
Today, TWENTY FIVE years later, there are guys running around in my neighbourhood offering to plow my (typical) drive for......wait for it......$199.00!! Need I mention how gas, plows, insurnace, wages and trucks have gone up in that time? This is why I won't do a private driveway. We do strictly commercial.

So, I have personal experience with retrograde prices. I can feel your pain.

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Tom M

I suppose I should of outlined things better with him but I didnt. As for contracts. I rarely do a contract for small service tasks, much less people I know. If it was a new source with no history damn straight I would have had something. We have done much together in the past and never had an issue like this. I think now that hes beening paid full time by municipals he has become a bottom line, get it done cheap or get someone else kinda of guy. Of course thats when you could explain to a client building a better costs more. Now its more like how much can we get for the least amount. I needed to do something and I did it is what it is now. Even if I wanted to go back to this kind of operation this proof why its like beating your head against the wall. How can any business operate much less grow at a negative or level rate for 13 some odd years.