Venting! + Need Advice From Other GC's

D.A.S.Anthony

Today, I had a meeting with my framer. We have had a 10 year working relationship. He knows my architects, other subs, etc. it is my strongest sub relationship.

Anyway, he comes to my office to pick up 3 new sets of plans too bid on that I told him I had ready for him. Problem is, one of the sets is from an architect that uses me alot, (again my best architect/GC relationship) although my architect has been dodging me for 2 days and not getting me the drawings. So I figured the Arch was busy and I would just have to get the plans to my framer another day.

My framer starts off sayig to me, did you get those plans from (lets call the architect John) John. I said no he has not sent them yet. Framer says I need to talk to you, I met a new builder this morning on a job he gave me the set of plans and they were from JOHN! Now obviously my framer has worked with this arch 10-20 times through my company. I slowly got furious as my framer continues to tell me, yeah it was at this address, this customer name, and he wants this done! THIS WAS MY JOB. (at least to bid) I finish my meeting, told the framer don't worry, bid the job from John with the other builder it's fine. My framer says he will not! That is part 1.

Part 2.
I call the Architect and ask him what's going on? he says "listen, I gave you 5 jobs last year, 1 this year, and you have got them all so far." He continues on, "The other builders that you are always bidding against are wondering why I keep asking them to bid jobs but never get any and they are in need of some work so I was going to give you the next one but not this one."

I can appreciate the honesty that my architect shows to all his clients. He always gets 3 bids, does a great job, is extremely honest and ethical with his clients. Has never asked us for anything. I can also appreciate the other builders state of mind going, why are we always a number for this arch but never get the work.

SO Here is what I said to him.

"Not my fault that your other builders can't get the work WE always get the work, because are price is in the middle, we have the best reputation in town, and we sell the HO's to use us! So screw the other builders. We are better and you know it, we make your job easier."

then I said,

"at this point I do not care about the job (bull****! it's 600k but I am more furious about the sub) DO NOT EVER GIVE MY SUBCONTRACTORS NUMBERS TO OTHER BUILDERS! I have spent my time weeding through the crappy sub-contractors, training them to build to your designs and drawings, and got the prices to where I need them to be. Now you are going to have another builder use my guys because you know he can do the work at a good price and in a manner that you like!

So was this wrong? I stand by it 100% I just want to know other people's thoughts.

Basically he is going to have a builder use my subs, for a job that I do not get to bid on. To me, a slap in the face, no matter how much work he has given me. The way I see it, this other builder must have asked for a framing referral and who knows what else. What that means to me is that this other "builder" is inadequate anyway! John knows the pricing I get and the quality I get from my subs So he is going to let another builder prosper off of my managing efforts! What's next my trim sub, electrician, plumber. I built my team over the course of 5-10 years only to have my arch pass this new "builder" the keys and say, It's ready to go! Have Fun. Make Money AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:censore d:

Venting and pissed! What would you all do?

__________________
Anthony
_____________________________
www.dasassociates.com Building from Greenwich to Fairfield and Westchester Counties.

Mike(VA)

Sounds like the archy may have a chance at a bit of kickback from the other builders.

__________________
__________________________________________________ ___________
I EXPECT THAT SOMEDAY I WILL SEE THE FRUITS OF MY LABOR. IS IT SOMEDAY YET?
Clifton, Great Falls, McLean, Fairfax Station, Manassas, Virginia Renovation Contractor

neolitic

This part I would have left unsaid.
The rest of it seems fair.
Question is can you afford to
tick him off?
Did you?

__________________
Put your location in your profile!
(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

D.A.S.Anthony

Yes, I did tick him off. But he was extremely embarrased and apologized about the sub referral. He understood my point completely.

Can I afford too, NO! But I cannot have this happen on so many levels. I had too nip it in the bud.

__________________
Anthony
_____________________________
www.dasassociates.com Building from Greenwich to Fairfield and Westchester Counties.

vinylguy

look at the bright side of this! this other contractor will go slower probably have all kinds of problems and be alot of headaches for the arch.
so when he calls you next time your price will now have to be raised to make his life easier.
to bad you can't get your subs to really slow down on this project for this other GC. or screw a couple of things up that would teach em!

Kaiser

Your right in every way. But I think you might have missed an opportunity if I read your post correctly.

Your framer said he would not bid it so he was willing to pass on the job. He could have given the guy a bid at 50% higher price.

If he got the job he makes good money and could possiby put some green men on it. They make mistakes while they learn, The other builder struggles, John realizes his mistake and you get a good chuckle.

__________________
"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined."
Henry David Thoreau

rbsremodeling

I think that you where wrong.

I think the architect sounds like a stand up guy to me and I think all architects suck ass except for 2 that I have met in my entire life.

Also he is smart for not always using you or maybe realizing he needs to spread the wealth around. In his defense if he needs to use another contractor they may not want to give him bids if they loose all the time.

The framer situation sounds weird. I have never heard of an architect going to a framer on a GC's behalf. Maybe that's some country stuff but he should have told you about it.

If you never got the plans it should have been ok for him to bid it in my opinion

__________________

Mellison

Tricky one.

But it realy comes down to Bidness being bidness!

__________________
"Enjoy Every Sandwich" Warren Zevon

D.A.S.Anthony

Point taken RBS! And yes you are right, the arch has always been a stand-up guy I have never had a problem with him and I do think he had good intentions but I think the situation was wrong because he did not come to me.

He has every right to spread the wealth around. That is his choice and a good one to run a successful arch business. He needs more than one strong relationship with builders.

The reason I got angry about the situation is because this is a set of plans he talked to me about, asked me to bid on, promised to get over to me immidietely, and the re-neged without telling me. Then to hear about it from my sub-contractor was frustrating to say the least.

If he called me and said, I am going to give you guys the next project but that one I told you about I am going to let 3 other guys bid on. That would have been fine with me. The fact is on Monday he said I would have them Tuesday. Then on Wednesday I am out, that bothered me.

The framer thing is even more frustrating, because I formed that relationship between the framer and the arch. I do not feel I own the framer, he should make money and work on any project he can get. If this builder had found my framer in the yellow pages it would not be an issue, it would be circumstance. As it stands, the arch, who loves our work, is cutting me out, but using a very important piece of my team. For a builder who has lost to my team for 2 years. The builder sounds very green, (at least in this town where the project is) and now he makes money, becomes my competition. All initiated by the architect who needs to keep things fair!

If he wants to be fair, then stop helping the other builders! Just do your job.

__________________
Anthony
_____________________________
www.dasassociates.com Building from Greenwich to Fairfield and Westchester Counties.

Winchester

It was a business decision on his part.

However, getting the subs involved may have been overstepping things and he was possibly out of line.

I don't think it was smart to bite the hand that feeds you, or is at least part of your feed. I'd apologise to him if you really lost it. Let him know it's not okay to involve your subs, but you apologise for the rest.

I think people have more respect for someone who can keep their cool. Let the guy know you are disappointed in him instead of making him angry. People who are angry are less likely to feel bad about what they did, they get more of a "F^&&*^ you I don't need you!" attitude.

I would have told your framer to give his bid at double what he normally would.

__________________
Ryan

neolitic

My only point was that
you could have been more
diplomatic with the bit
I quoted.
The whole thing with the framer
would tick me off too.
At least you know where he stands.

__________________
Put your location in your profile!
(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

D.A.S.Anthony

I believe I was more diplomatic than I have written here. I am obviously venting and would never "come down" on him that hard. It was a conversation not a lecture. Like I said he got my point. THe more time I have to think about it, is making me more angry though that is why I sound so harsh here.

again, it is a very good arch/GC relationship and it is definately not ruined. funny thing is, I have a meeting with him tomorrow about another job.

Just needed him too know it was not cool by me and a conversation and honesty is all I expect in all my relationships.

__________________
Anthony
_____________________________
www.dasassociates.com Building from Greenwich to Fairfield and Westchester Counties.

D.A.S.Anthony

I do love that framer. The best I have ever seen! I will also be calling him tomorrow to take that bid! In this economy it is not the time to be proud. I need him to succeed and stay in business. It helps me in the long run.

__________________
Anthony
_____________________________
www.dasassociates.com Building from Greenwich to Fairfield and Westchester Counties.

D.A.S.Anthony

Just want to say thanks to those who have replied here good or bad. It is things like this that really eat at me all day and night about the business. It genuinly feels good to hear any feedback from people who actually can relate. Getting my thoughts out here has a calming effect.

Ummmmmmmmmmm back to the topic!

Thanks

__________________
Anthony
_____________________________
www.dasassociates.com Building from Greenwich to Fairfield and Westchester Counties.

rbsremodeling

I would also call the Architect back and let him know that you appreciate the work he has sent your way and look forward to anything coming up on the horizon and let him know and feel all is well between the two of you

__________________

dubz

He's meeting him tomorrow about another job. Which, by the way, is awesome that there are some things in the works down there. Up in Litchfield county we've been fairly recession proof in the past, but quite a few projects got put on hold this winter.

D.A.S.Anthony

Yes I am meeting him tomorrow. I will make sure that the relationship is solid. WHo knows, we may be better for it. These things have a funny way of "framing" a better relationship.

Dubz, things are really picking up down here. I saw nothing from sep-dec. not a 5,000 job. the past 3 weeks I have had 10-12 solid leads, 5 bids out, 2 signed contracts (smaller jobs)and promised more to come. We are really opotmistic about the spring.

__________________
Anthony
_____________________________
www.dasassociates.com Building from Greenwich to Fairfield and Westchester Counties.

Bodger

I think the line crossing with the sub would be what I would have been most pissed about.

I think you are handling it well. I'm a bit of a hot-head about stuff like this and sometimes I can pissed as hell about one wrong thing and not see ten right things that I would besmart to consider before I open my mouth in an un-diplomatic way.

I have such trouble with archys, I have to count to ten sometimes just being in the presence of one of them so I don't mouth off.
I know they're not all bad though. Well, so I've heard.

Brock

I feel the arch is way out of line and framer should have come to you right away. I can go on and on how I won't give out my subs numbers to anyone. It's just like the O/P said. I have been through the gates of hell and back trying to get the 4 good subs I have. I would need 50 pages to write out how much hell subs have caused me throughout the years.

dubz

That's great to hear, Anthony. I need to read more stuff like this!

You have a really sharp website, btw with great looking work.