To UNION Or Not To UNION

ARI001

Fascism: A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism. Oppressive or dictatorial control.

Capitalist: An investor of capital in a business, esp, one having a major interest in an important enterprise. A person of great wealth. A person who supports capitalism.

Capitalistic: Of or pertaining to capitalism or capitalists.

Socialism: A social system in which the producers possesses both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods. The theory or practice of those who support such social system. In Marxist Leninist theory, the building of material base for communism under the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Communism: A social system characterized by the common ownership of the means of production and subsistence and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

I sir, am a capitalist. I do not control the social or economic being of my employees. They are free to leave if they can do better somewhere else. All businesses have a chain of command and set practices and procedures established by those with controlling interest and risk undertaken in the business. This is not fascism it is risk management. The United States government and military have the same basic systems in play.

I am not whining about the rules of business and the rules do not change as much as you think. Marketing is a big part of the "game" but so is performance and ability to competitively price out your work. Labor is one of the substantial costs of doing business. Those who produce the best work in the shortest period are those that earn the highest pay. Those who are just bodies on the site meeting minimum standards should be those paid the least. That's just business it's nothing personal, just business.

XanadooLTD

United Socialists of America!!! Bailout nation.

LJSMITH1

Ok..if you say so.... Let me be clear, I am not laughing *AT* anyone who loses their job, just at the idea that the only reason why companies are offshoring is to break Unions. If that were really true, why are Unions (in general) less popular among the middle class than they were only 30 years ago? If that is so, why are Unions still so predominant in Government or public services and not so much on the private sectors? I would think that everyone would know there is a concerted effort to break the union and jump on the bandwagon to unionize every manufacturer in the USA, and in Europe (they have the same issue). If it were true, then why are companies that are not Unionized, doing the same EXACT thing???

Why should any employer be beholden to a particular group to hire from? For example, if they hire non-union Americans, why should that be a problem, they are American citizens, right? Apparently, it is a BIG problem for some folks. I am not talking about illegals here. I am talking about equally-skilled folks that are willing to work for less than what others are willing to work for. If they are AMERICAN, why should it matter? If the employer is following all of the regulations and laws (that the Unions helped create), why shouldn't they be free to hire whomever they want? I don't understand...

Do you think that if you 'decide' to work for a company that they should just automatically hire you? What about keeping those workers employed...Do you think that if a company is in bad financial shape (due to the economy or strong competition) that they should not be able to lay people off or cut salaries and benefits just to keep people employed and the company afloat? I am willing to bet that you would say 'yes' to one or more of these questions.

Losing a job is not funny (as I have been laid off 2x in my career). I know what it feels like not to have health insurance coverage, struggle to pay my mortgage, struggle to feed my family. In both cases, the company made stupid decisions that resulted in financial meltdowns, and many employees lost jobs. Not my fault, but I got hurt. Guess what? I got right back on my feet and moved on. I don't harbor any bad feelings towards those that let me go, because I understand (and accept) that I am a replaceable 'resource'. I have no intent on being a 'lifer' at any company. I will do what I do until I don't grow anymore, then I'll change gears.

My point is, nowadays companies make decisions that might not have anything to do with the American worker, but can affect the American worker in a negative way. That is unfortunate, but it is typically just a business decision. At my company, overall production volume has dropped close to 35%. That required us to reduce headcount on the production floor and eliminate some salaried positions. We did not *want* to do this , as many of the employees are skilled and experienced. However, we could not financially afford to keep them on - and there was not enough work for them to do. If business picks up, we certainly will call many of these folks back (if they have not already started another job). If I was on the receiving end of this layoff, I would do what I did in the past. Pick myself up and move on. This is nothing personal, it's just business. Sometimes business is a bit*h on both sides of the aisle.

Having a job is not a 'right' of every person in the developed world. It is a choice. Its a choice of an employer to hire you, and a choice for an individual to accept the offer and compensation. Barring discrimination or any other employment law issue, there should be synergy with this. However, there are some groups that believe that a paying job is a 'right' or an 'entitlement', and could be furthest from reality. They further demand more than the going rate and feel entitled to more benefits, pensions, or special work rules. When the groups don't get what they want, they 'extort' it by slowing work, or stopping it all together. This does nothing except hurt the company that they work for. Sometimes, it puts the company out of business all together. So companies ultimately give in to save the pain, and raise costs to their products. Which then puts them in a more difficult position to compete with companies that don't have this issue.

Many states (including mine) are "at will" employment, and labor laws make it very clear that when you sign on, you may be terminated for any reason (or no reason) at any time. Likewise, an employee is free to quit with no notice and for any reason. The rules are laid out in advance, and I don't worry every day that I may lose my job today. I just focus doing the best job I can every day.

westernexplorer

MRMIKE,

They don't get it because they can't get it. What's the old saying..." walk a mile in my shoes". They are self centered with blinders on, much like the politicians in Washington DC.

Just as the article about GE expanding in NY and KY said, about painful concession's to the UNION WORKERS, Now the CEO's didn't share in this pain at all.......selfish and self centered, that's why they are Republicans

LJSMITH1

I like how you group me into a stereotype...

I don't think YOU get it, nor will you ever...Keep living in the past and drinking the Kool-Aid. I am sure you will be just fine. In your eyes oranges and baseballs are the same thing - they are round balls.

I am a registered Independent and have been for 18 years. Now I bet you are going to chastise me for that....

Hmm...I wonder how things would be if a company just cut it's own head off by eliminating all VP's, The CEO, & Directors....I am sure you would think it would work just fine because at least no WORKERS were laid off, right?? You should become a consultant and see how that might work in reality.

ARI001

This is what the Unions and its supporters don't seem to get:
When starting any business the person(s) involved assume great liability and risks. If the business does not succeed (most do not) they lose their investment into the business and in some cases everything they have. If the business succeeds they get a return on the risk they have undertaken.

It falls on the people running the business and who have invested in it to decide what they need to charge for their product to 1. Sell the product 2. Cover the expenses associated with production of the product 3. Turning a profit from the sale of the product.

The business must set wages for labor that will allow these goals to be accomplished and must do so while adhering to a multitude of regulations and laws as well as paying a fair competitive wage in order to keep those employees that are valuable to the business. When you artificially inflate the value of the labor burden beyond a point in which people are willing to pay for the product you can not sell the product. If you can not sell the product you will not stay in business. If the business goes under you lose your investment and your labor force loses its jobs.

I have no problem with organizing labor to ensure that employees are treated fairly and provided with safe working conditions. I also have no problem with employee representation ensuring businesses are following the laws set forth by the government to ensure fair and ethical treatment of employees.

I have issues with organized labor trying to extort wages from businesses for labor that may or may not perform adequately to justify said wage. All private businesses are production based and must decide compensation of its employees on a per basis rate in which they are able to produce. Paying a wage above this amount can result in catastrophic consequences for the business.

Remember guys if it wasn't for the person taking the risk to start that business you would have no one to negotiate with. The businesses are not the enemy, they create the potential for jobs in the area they are located in. If the expenses of doing business exceed what the business can recoup they have two choices:

1. Relocate somewhere they can continue to operate and meet their goals.
2. Close up shop.

Now you invest a large percentage of your hard earned money into a business and see how you feel about someone outside of your company dictating the wages you pay and the employees you can hire.

No company will survive very long if they do not pay their employees a competitive rate. If they underpay good employees they will lose those employees and be stuck with those that do not produce well. If they overpay the employees that are under producing the productive employees will not be motivated to continue producing at a higher production rate.

LJSMITH1

Well said. I especially agree with your statement in bold.

Kuba

Its very interesting that the parties that support outsourcing are also the ones supporting the green tax on us citizens...Heres the catch... Exploite labor expenses over seas, pay tons of fuel costs to ship materials to and from the US = tons of green house gas + increased unemployment in the US + power leverage on US industry pricing.Tell me someone didnt plan this...If US leadership cared so much about green house gases in industry, why the fk they endorce outsourcing, which increases polution to colosal porportions.1 - it will cause US citizens and small business to scream for Gov aid2 - increases Gov income through illegal taxation.You have 2 things at your front door right now...8% income tax as a worker for the new medicare system5% green house credit taxes...youre all in business... how much is the middle class worker now going to have to shell out in taxes .... they are already close to 40% with our match that we pay... (Felony to tell them about it by the way - they dont want your workers getting mad when they find out their potential earnings are being taken away from them)

LJSMITH1

Cap and Trade is one of the biggest scams coming down the pike, aside from man-made global warming (don't get me started!). I agree that certain groups are looking to get more tax money out of everyone, not just the middle class. Unfortunately, if they are successful, the middle class will bear a large portion of the tax.

Not that I am advocating outsourcing (I am very pro-Made In USA), but how will that "colossally increase pollution"? If we import or export, there are still shipping concerns. Locally, environmentalists and governments in MANY areas around the world have made great strides in improving pollution control and regulations. However, in other areas, people don't care. Forget about the manufacturing...agricultural activities have caused more lasting negative environmental impacts (i.e. pesticides, fertilizers, land clearing, etc) than a few factories of assemblers or plastic molders. Couple that with poor sanitation (i.e. your poo floating down a river that people wash clothes in), makes for a locally toxic environment - anywhere. Because we are a developed country, we have indoor plumbing, garbage disposals, emissions controls, technology, and most importantly - an energy delivery system (gas-oil-electricity). Wow...we are smart, and we are not isolationists.

The big question is: How can you get others, who are in the stone age - creating pollution - harming the planet, to be as developed as us? Not an easy task because of the politics, cultures, and personalities of the leaders involved. We can't even stop war....

Kuba

First of all, Im one of those guys who thinks that one families problems shouldnt be that of the whole neighborhoods... In otherwords, stay out of other countries fkn business unless they provoke us.Fact: The whole world HATES the USA - be cause we have our nose so far up their ass telling them what and how to live their life... Funny hypo ideology for those preaching freedom eh???Fact: They use more fuels and produce more waste growing, processing and shipping ORANGES in Brazil then the US does... BUT they are smashing the US agriculture industry! Florida Orange Juice is on the brink of bankrupcy.. And that was BEFORE this economic bull **** forced crash!Fact: Cash for clunkers is to stimulate the auto industry and the gov wants to trick the US citizens into paying for their OWN employment! Double back end taxation and huuuuuge inflation attatched to this... Need I mention its not going to do anything for the auto industry!!! NOTHING!!!! The money will run out and they will be back to square one! WHY?? BECAUSE FORD AND CHEVY ARE NO LONGER AMERICAN VEHICALS!!! They are made in Mexico and Canada! Toyota employees more Americans then "The heart beat of America"....Fact: Obamas new Medicare plans are NO WAY FIXING a broken system. In FACT, its long term affects will crush it! You will be left with a health care system like Canada and France!! COMPLETE CAVE MAN CARE and 50% TAXATION ON IT!!!! WOW!!! And the Gov wont have anyone competing over them later....With Obama in office you can count on CHANGE1# Watching every middle class and small business owner crushed with taxes2# Industry coming to another recession and complete overhaul of the American Currency = AMERO#3~ THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION - because the American people asked for it!Please tell me ANY welfare program has worked..? I can name a few... Food stamps, Sub Housing etc....Does any of that help people? NOOOOOOOOOOO It breeds rats, criminals and government slaves! They dont want to work or better themselves so long as us business owners are shelling out their way in life!!!!F K them all!FABIEN SOCIETY bitches!!!!

LJSMITH1

Kuba I think you need to have a drink...or two...or three! Maybe I wil join you!

But I understand you completely and I share much of the same frustration with the a$$clowns in Congress and in our local governments. Do nothings...

Just look at the idiots that were just nailed in NJ...My state (CT) has had its ongoing share of tehse corrupt, self serving, idiots. Yet, some people are so blind to the lack of qualificaions many of these folks have. You could be a Marion Barry..and get elected 2X and be a drug addict! WTF!

ARI001

While I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying you discredit yourself the way you present your argument. Also please use the enter key every now and then.

Kuba

Think about what you said the next time you take your wife to go buy something with a sticker on it "Made in China" "Made in Indonesia" "Made in Vietnam" "Made in the Phillipines" "Made in Mexico" ..... on and on....Fact of the matter is.. When you buy something imported, you are fkn yoru self and your fellow American =)Construction is one of the last entities they cant outsource.. Well, until they make it legal to bring foreign workers into our boarders to build something for a profit, and then LEAVE...Its all fkn bull****... There are no fair trade agreements, they have it set up that way. If they are going to exploit labor expenses and material costs over seas, they need to adjust the import taxes so its fair competition for our industry, instead of letting the world bend us over and our American ELite get rich as hell doing it!Small business is the backbone of this country.. And they sure want to see that destroyed...WHy dont we start jacking the fkn price of our timber and food exports like they jack our energy imports.. no???

Kuba

I sir, am a capitalist. I do not control the social or economic being of my employees. They are free to leave if they can do better somewhere else. All businesses have a chain of command and set practices and procedures established by those with controlling interest and risk undertaken in the business. This is not fascism it is risk management. The United States government and military have the same basic systems in play.

&Bull****.. Yeah coming from a former Marine too...See " Military Commision Act of 2006"Straight from the US White House web site...Your gov is more fascious than you realize and its getting worse dude... For the most part b/c people watch corp news and are feed bull**** lies and distractions.

Kuba

multi tasking.. sry bout the hard reading... leaving to get my kids now...I think i will have a drink.. even tho i dont drink =) Ill make a toast to all the dumb fkz that think CNN, MSNBC, FOX.. all them bs new channels "preachh the truth"... riiiiight... Be cause they know Americans dont read anymore and are to lazy to find the truth for themselves.. So they go on forums all over the world and spew bs they saw on the FAKE news to make themselves look important....sigh

ARI001

KUBA,
You have issues. I think maybe a visit to a psychiatrist or counselor would benefit you. If you can't make an argument without all the expletives it leads me to believe you are not capable of intelligent conversation or debate. Calm down, take a deep breath and go to your happy place.

Kuba

Go fix your Obama Bumper sticker you fkn commie

ARI001

First, I think you will find that most guys here are very confrontational so take your Fabien society stuff somewhere else. Second, you obviously have very limited understanding of the English language if you are calling me a communist. I was trying to convey to you that to make a valid argument you can not let your emotions get the better of you.

Framer53

I will defend him, he is not a communist. Didn't you read the definitions he posted?

westernexplorer

He supports the right of labor to organize for safety and working conditions and the ethical treanment to ensure government laws are followed, but not wages..?

You said Business has the right to set wages, your wrong. The market place sets wages. Labor is just like any other commodity, the greater the supply the lower the price.

This is why the Elite, Conservatives AND Liberal's want to welcome all the illegal's into the US and tell everyone "how much we need them to do all the jobs American's won't do". This is done to enrich the top 1% in this country. See, I'm a businessman, just not one of the top 1%. I sir, support the American people and as a US Military Veteran myself, it pains me greatly, to see American's displaced by people who shouldn't be here to begin with.

Carpentry, roofing, carpet installing, painting, use to all be good jobs that paid a living wage and you could raise a family on those jobs. Now, almost without exception the only American's on residential jobs are the plumbers and electrician's, because the journeyman are required by State law to be licensed and the test is only given in English in my State.

You sir, are the one living with your head in the sand. You think after we continue to drive this country to her knee's that the world will be waiting to help us. We are on our own, and the sooner you and the rest of the Globalization crowd figure that out, we will all be better off.

I pay my people the top wage and provide a retirement for them and they produce a quality installation. I see these people in the grocery stores and the malls. I know there families and most of there kids. I sir, don't have the stomach to be a part of destroying the future of America for there kids or my own. If that means, I make a little less money every year, than so be it. You can call me whatever you want to, but I will leave this world with a clean consense, knowing I did everything I could to save this country for future generations. Which, by the way includes my children.

There is a difference between making a decent profit and being down right greedy. We are all in business to make money. I don't operate a non-profit company. However, I can look my employee's in the eye and without question, they know they are being paid the highest wage and benefit package in the industry and they work hard for it.