Thoughts On This Subject, A Problem I Am Having.

Grumpy

Quick history... we were working for a contractor doing some roofing, copper work, and aluminum trim and gutter on a house. The father of the home owner was impressed with our work and asked the contractor for an estimate. He gave us the referral. We ended up installing a new shingle roof, aluminum gutter and partial vinyl siding on a rear dormer & addition. We did a really good job, about an $18k job. The customer was happy. Gave us straight 5's on our survey (perfect score!)

About a week after he paid, in these bad snows we just got, the customer called and said he had a leak coming in his window. We sent out a worker that same morning, he remove a piece of siding, installed a z flashing and caulked it, althoguh because we capped the window I knew it wasn't likley it was the cause. This room is a porch addition with a flat roof we didn't touch the roof on, but did install new gutters. I absolutely hate installing K style gutters on flat roofing, but it's what he had before and didn't like the look of box since the rest of his house was K.

Anyways this small 3-4 square flat roof, we were told was 5 years old, after we removed a rug and walk pads that were on it discovered it was no where near 5 years old, to which then the customer said "Oh the roof is 20 years old, the rug was put on 5 years ago" Big difference. This roof is failing! Infact it is failing where the modified bitumen meets the gutter flashing, it has come un sealed almost compeltely, and was never primed.

So there is a leak coming in at a roof we didn't install and the customer wants us to fix it. BTW this wasn't my customer (a different estimator) but I now got involved because I take complaints and leaks very seriously since they seldom happen. I told the customer that we are not convinced that the problem was caused by us but we will try to fix it for him one time for free because he was a referral and we enjoyed working with him, but also explained that he needs a new roof on this section of his house and had we known it was 20 years old would have made it part of the original project.

He agreed to install the new roof in the spring, hasn't signed anything yet but said "Put me on your schedule we need this done asap!" I have a worker out there using a hot air gun to weld the modified back to the old gutter flashing, which BTW wasn't primed or isntalled properly in the first place 20 years ago.

Ok guys thanks for reading the history... now here is the problem. The customer wants me to reimburse him approximately $1,000 in interior damages. A) we didn't do this roof so it's not covered under our warranty. B) even if we did do the roof my written warranty specifically excludes subsequent damages, and only covers repair of the defect.

I just know this guy is going to be a problem. He has so far been very persistant about asking me for this money. I don't feel it is my fault nor responsibility to repair the interior of his home.

What do you think?


P.S. little bit more history. The person he called to look at the interior is the contractor who we were working for when he requested his estimate. The customer tells me that the contractor agrees with him. When I called the contractor he said he told the customer it's not our fault.

In addition the customer says he never had any problems before, and said that the one window, of two windows in the room, was leaking; but when we inspected the interior there were old water stains around the second window as well. To me it is obvious this has been an ongoing problem.

par3144

Sounds like he is looking for a way to get it fixed for free knowing he had the problem and using you for an escape goat! I wouldn't fix it if your absolutely sure it wasn't anything you guys did or worked on.

Good Luck
Pat

jmic

I'd go to him with his check in hand for his repairs providing he signs your contract to replace his worn out roof in the spring. Take a deposit from him and end up burying his repair cost in your new contract.

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neolitic

If you want to save the deal this sounds like an idea.
Something like, "No point in doing repairs til the problem is solved..."
Think I'd also mention that you discussed it with the other contractor...
see how he reacts when he knows he's been caught out?

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d-rez

I have been in the same situation a few times. Ask the G.C. to send you a brief email stating he inspected it and determined it was not your fault. Print it. File it. Can you take digital photos of the old water spots? If it's not too late, document the sub-par existing work. Store or print the photos. Now for the tact and diplomacy: nobody likes to be told no, so I put the ball in their court. I would first explain your case: 1 leaky roof not in scope of contract, 2 water marks, 3 sub-par existing work, 4 A third party inspected it and confirmed you were not at fault (and you lied to me!!!!). Then ask the HO to explain why you should cover the costs. BTW- my contracts have a clause stating I am not responcible for existing work that is too frail to withstand the activity of normal construction. So,... if I have a Bobcat jacking out a slab and the vibrations shake some 30yr old siding with rusty nails off the house, I am cleared. I though of this if he tried to say the pounding of your hammers caused the house to collapse or some BS. -Chris

KentWhitten

you have an ally with the builder, bring him along and confront the HO with both of you there.

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rbsremodeling

1.Take lots of pictures if you can

2.start corresponding in emails so you have a record

3.get the contractor to send you a letter or get a email record him saying it is not your fault

4. Document that you tried to help even though you know it was not your fault, document that you where trying to be a good contractor but it is not your fault and can't procede any further, explaing all the reasons why came to this conclusion. Document his responsive and any deceptive answers or motives he had as well

Document everything in a book or in emails

Dont do anything else to the house. Nothing leave it the **** alone

He is trying to get over. Make sure you have everything documented. I have been down this road to like others as said. The more you have document if it ever gets serious

"he with the most paper work wins"

also watchin Judge Judy helps

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Tmrrptr

Grumpy, your explanation of the situation and circumstances were quite convincing here... I hope you have taken pictures.

Tell the fellow you won't warrant work you have not done, and would have advised the additional work if you had been told of the prior damage before doing the work you did.

Offer a discount to make the lasting repair, "since he is such a fine fellow and pays promptly." Be sure to include that time spent on repair, and cost of that interior work in your bid.

If that builder can be of assistance in your cause, ask him...

Whatever the figure ends up being, the client always end up with lasting value in excess of wages you earn for doing the work!

rbsremodeling

don't touch it with a 10' pole

I will only get worst or you will end up working for free or getting sued

How many of you guys have been in this type of situation that it turned out good?

I know I sound real negative but I have been to court twice. I was lucky to win both times but it is not a nice feeling. Distance your self and be prepared.

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Ed the Roofer

[quote=Grumpy;341197]

This room is a porch addition with a flat roof we didn't touch the roof on, but did install new gutters. I absolutely hate installing K style gutters on flat roofing, but it's what he had before and didn't like the look of box since the rest of his house was K.

Anyways this small 3-4 square flat roof, we were told was 5 years old, after we removed a rug and walk pads that were on it discovered it was no where near 5 years old, to which then the customer said "Oh the roof is 20 years old, the rug was put on 5 years ago" Big difference. This roof is failing! Infact it is failing where the modified bitumen meets the gutter flashing, it has come un sealed almost compeltely, and was never primed.

So there is a leak coming in at a roof we didn't install and the customer wants us to fix it. .

[quote]

Grumpy,

I would take your side due to your conviction to a conscientious approach to a job, except for the legal aspect, by which when you removed the old gutters and installed new gutters, that could possible be pointed out to be the cause of the seal to the gutter flashing being broken.

I would not do the re-heating that your guy is doing, but I would strip in a new piece of mod bit with a 2-ply. First ply goes behind the gutter and the second one folds down on the face of the gutter flashing, just above the hanger brackets. Then secure that face applied layer with an aluminum termination bar.

Your method, since it popped the seal already, will likely loosen and pop apart again.

Your "Outs" for this, would be your photos, if they can distinctly show mold growth, proving that it is older than 2-3 weeks of age.

Next "Out" would be to blame the corruption of the seam on an ice damming problem.

I would only do the repairs, if I was getting paid for them or he actually signed the contract for the spring time work.

Unfortunately, since you had to work next to the old gutter flashing, you may have "Bought" the repair, if that is how he feels about it.

I am not sure a warranty clause saying damage due to your supposed neglect, would hold up under legal scrutiny.

If so, offer to split the costs 50/50, since you are convinced they were old, or stand your ground. Your deductible will not make this worth turning in as a claim.

Ed

POOLMANinCT

wow ed,

i have a feeling youve been in some tough jams.. lol
io agree with your theory here.

ray

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Grumpy

That's a thought that has been kicked around the office. Problem is (I havent put pen to paper yet) I am guessing the small new roof to be about $2,000. I think he'd figure out of we added another $1,000 ontop of it.

Drez, I have a similiar clause as I said "not responsible for subsequent damages". I did what you said when I met with the fellow. "I am not convinced this was caused by our workers. We didn't touch this roof." I then further pointed out the exclusion in my contract asking if he had read it before he hired us. Then I asked why he thought it was our problem and we all know what he said! "It didn't leak before you guys started."

I'd like to get the builder involved, but again, we wern't hired byt he builder to work on this job. He doesn't really want to get involved in cleaning up a mess that isn't his mess to clean, and I can not fault him for that.
I could ask him to send me an email summarizing our phone conversation but I bet that's about as far as I can push it. he needs to save face too, with his customer, who is my customer's daughter.

RBS that's the only reason was even considering eating it, was because I don't want to end up in court or with a BBB or Angies list slander against my name. It's "almost" not worth fighting.


Ed I agree 100%. There is some chance, all be it small, that the damage could have been caused by us. That is why I wanted to inspect it myself.

We wanted to strip in some modified but there are railings and posts on this roof,the roof is used as a deck, There simply is not room for the strip in, without removing these railings, which will fall apart immediately upon removal opening a larger can of worms than we already have. BTW yes your method of under and over is how we would have flashed the gutter had we replaced the roof. That's the only way to make it work when installing a K on a flat.


Ed I took my exclusion, almost word for word, out of our favorite big boxes' warranty form. Would it stand up? I certainly hope so. I mean after all, all you need is one A hole customer who will have you replacing his floor, redoing his wall, replacing his over priced window treatments, his persian rug, his plasma TV. And every other item he could claim to be in that room. Spend $20,000 on a missing shingle or leaky flashing for roof that originally cost $5,500.

I don't know ANYONE who covers subsequent damages as a result of a defect in workmanship. Manufacturers certainly don't cover subsequent damages as a result of material defect.


Update BTW, the customer trashed his brand new gutter yesterday getting the ive out of it so my worker could do the repair today.

Grumpy

OH I missed that when I read your original post. My insurance does not cover damage after the job is DONE. They can make a claim if they want but it will be denyed (denied?). It's alot cheaper this way.

Ed the Roofer

Usually the posts through a BUR or Mod Bit roof leak, especially since not too many are installed correctly on residential applications.

BTW, I was not laying blame at your feet for the gutter flashing potential leak, but just trying to show how that could be viewed by a court via the HO's interpretation.

HO, says no leak before you touched it.

After work is done by that area, HO says it leaks.

Still, a $ 1,000.00 claim is not worth putting through your insurance coverage.

Unless your photos can show the age of the leak damage and possible mold algae stains, which would indicate it is longer ago than 2-3 weeks old, You should try to see if he will go the 50/50 route, or else eat it with your own interior contractor you use for such things.

I have a good guy for small repairs that I recommend to HO's many times since they usually have some interior damage if they waited too long to fix their roof.

Ed

Bone Saw

since right from the get go he lied about the roof's age, Not only would I not do any more work for this guy, but I wouldn't be repairing squat, as far as the $1000 reimbursment, why would you even letting this rent space in your brain housing assembely?

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bookie

I have some experience in this area in IL.

I would not go anywhere near that property again, for any reason.

I would tell the guy this:

Coincidental leaking on an area we didn't service is not our issue. Please contact your homeowner's insurance. If they determine the gutter work caused the leak, let me know. If you don't want to do that, I will contact mine just as soon as the EPA inspection of your mold and a determination of cause is issued.

This guy is jacking you. Seriously. He is trying to dig through your pockets. IL judges have better things to do than hear this stuff. Even if he goes to small claims, the first question from the judge will be "Did you file a claim with your insurance company?" Think of what Judge Judy might say.

As the "fixer" you have become un-qualified to determine the source of the leak. This is no longer a job, it's a dispute. And disputes need third-party resolution, the first of which is your HOs insurance adjuster.

If you don't want to do what I said up there, then give the guy a new roof and pay for his incidental damages, because if you start fixing it that could be seen as an admission of fault and there will be no end to the nickel & diming. Do you want to go where this is going? Down the road of mold and health issues and families staying in hotels and the resultant "mental distress?"

Tip: Have all future communication with this guy in writing. You may need the documentation.

Best of luck. I'm not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice.

bookie

RidgeWalker

I have an exclusions section in my warranty, in this case the named area of roofing not worked on would be written in as an exclusion. I'd tell him to have a nice christmas, and let him decide what the next step should be.

Should he be silly enough to try and take you to court he's the one with the burden of proof that the leak is your fault. His word would not be enough proof of anything.

I think you safe, so have a nice Christmas Grumpy.

Dave Mac

Grumpy, so you are saying if it was your fault, in you contract you are not liable for any interior damage that occurs???? I disagree with that totally.

In this case, it sounds like it was not you fault.

ultimatetouch

You should not touch it. Dont go near it and dont return his phone calls. Maybe you should take a few pictures of the problem and file it (just in case). You took a great aproach to the situation. I would have done the same thing. I have to be careful not to be a push over with customers because I am so willing to please but sometimes you just have to walk away. You caught a bottom feeder. I have a lady who bullied and manimpulated everything she could out of me during the project. She called me up just as the project ended and said there was a short in one of the lights. I sent an elctrician out there. She had put to high of a wat bulb in the recessed light and it had a shower trim on it. It was automaticaly shutting off. She nearly started a fire. Now she calls me out of the blue after 1 month since the projects been done. She wants my plumbers # so she could ask him somthing. I told her she could ask me and I would be glad to help her. She says never mind. A week aftr this conversation she tells me that all of her faucets are loose and she needs the plumber out here. All of her faucets loose after two months of installation. thats strange. I refuse to waist my guys time and send them there. She is threating to take me to court saying I am not sticking to my warranty. Shes threating to get on every forum and warn consumers. She is a discusting, manipulative slob. Let her take me to court.

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Mike Finley

Dude, that is a total pipe dream. You might get some mileage out of it from a small percentage of people who it might disuade from even pursuing it with you.

But if push comes to shove a judge will laugh you out of court with a clause like that.

That isn't even a 'warranty' issue. It will become a general liability insurance issue. Your guys f up somebodies flashing around a chimney on a roof and the first heavy rain it floods their antique butterfly collection, warps their hardwood floor and turn into mold and you're paying for it without a doubt.

You're living in the age of somebody spilling hot coffee on their lap from McDonalds results in a multi million dollar settlement.

Total agreement.

Do not even think about admitting to anything or compromising. Either you're responsible or you are not, there is no gray area, there is no promise of future work issues, no nothing.

If you are responsible fix it, if not do not.