...those employees - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

George Z · 06-22-2006, 11:05 PM

Just a positive spin to some employee problems here recently.
Let me qualify everything: We are a painting contractor and have five painters now and keep hiring.
I love our employees.
They work really hard, care and bring jobs under budget.
Job, after job, after job, our customers are raving about them and refferals keep coming.
We can put a binderful of testimonials to that effect.
What is more important, they just love their jobs. A work day is fun.
I even feel like I am missing out on the fun after I stopped painting.
Company keeps 50% gross profit and after materials and burden they
can make as much money as they want(they just can't touch the 50%)
We had the usual problems before. What is different this time?
We changed our attitude. I think employee problems are management problems.
We care about them, their lives their concerns. We provide an amazing,
supportive and fun place to work. Chemistry among crew members is developed.
In the meantime we are behind them 100%. A mistake or five is forgiven.
In cases of disagreement the painter gets the benefit of the doubt.
We are also an open book company. Every one of them is or will be given
a tour in Quickbooks and they can find out monthly sales, my salary, anything they like.
We hire for the right attitude first and skill after.
Did we ever hire the wrong employee in the past? Yes.
We were the ones that hired them, weren't we? It's all about being accountable.
This switch is working and working well.
We just know very well that without the painters we are nothing.

Mike Finley · 06-22-2006, 11:32 PM

I love it George, I aspire to get it down to the point where you have it.

BreyerConstruct · 06-23-2006, 05:29 AM

While we're still slowly building a base of quality employees, I've been really intrigued about the open book policy. Right now I'm not sure if the guys we have would really care- but it's just too cool of an idea. Has anyone had a negative experience or any thoughts to balance out the "only good" stories we've heard?

Thanks,

~Matt

George Z · 06-23-2006, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreyerConstruct

While we're still slowly building a base of quality employees, I've been really intrigued about the open book policy. Right now I'm not sure if the guys we have would really care- but it's just too cool of an idea. Has anyone had a negative experience or any thoughts to balance out the "only good" stories we've heard?

Thanks,

~Matt

There have been only negative stories here lately.

maj · 06-23-2006, 06:36 AM

George, you are so right on the money.

I wonder how many "bosses" on this forum have worked for other contractors before starting up their own business? Show of hands???

Myself, I have worked for 4 different contractors & 2 different places not related to construction. So I have had 6 different bosses before being one myself. I will tell you they were all different. I learned how & how not to be a boss by the examples set by past bosses. I "try" to be like the best one, but sometimes old habits just take over. Alot of being a "good guy to work for" has to do with each persons character. Some people just aren't cut out to be a boss. I think I am one of those. I realize this, so for this reason, I don't have alot of employees.

Years ago I was working for a contractor building houses. The sheetrock hangers were hanging rock. The rockers had a new guy cutting out can lights overhead with the ziptool. He got WAAAYYY off on a couple of cans, the hole was twice the size of the can. The boss came over to check his work and laughed & said "That's alright, you'll do better on the next ones. We can fix those." Most bosses would probably get a little p.o.'d and say something to give this new guy a bad attitude towards him for the rest of his employment.

Treat them right, and they will treat you right!!!

IHI · 06-23-2006, 06:50 AM

I can relate and have used the kindergarden principal of treat them like you want to be treated. When I was the supervisor for a large OTR company's repair shop and trailer sales outfit every employee I hired loved working there (after we got rid of the first crew that were all druggies/drunks and would beeotch if you gave them a bonus). The guys knew I never asked them to do anything that I personally would not get it there and do and often just to get away from the computer/customers and BS I would anyways...I found a long time ago workers respect a boss that will get dirty with them as opposed to being the "voice from above" barking orders at them...have always "asked" them to do this or that. When that company shut our doors to move to a different state all the guys over beer one night stated they've never worked for a guy like me and suspect they probably never would again either so that makes ya feel good and know your doing something right.

Now with this construction gig, I find I'm not as loose as far as joking around on site, but typically it's because I have 100 things going on in the brain at once. Things happen and I know I'e made alot of mistakes too and that's how I learned so it's hard for me to act god like and hollar at them for a screw up that I've done myself since **** happens. I just dont like consistant screw ups...then I'm a azzhole

The guys can BS all they want so long as their productive, for me I'ce always kept the mouth shut and nose to the grinding stone then joke around after I'm done. wish I could joke when I'm working all day long, but I've never been that way.

As greedy as some guys get I dont know if the open book would be ideal, but the percentage pay is a typical piece work plan which will extract the most from your guys since they're more/less getting paid like subs-they dictate how much they will make, not the "we're paid by the hour mentality alot of folks adopt.

Mike Finley · 06-23-2006, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Z

There have been only negative stories here lately.

I wouldn't read into it that much. In most cases it's just guys blowing off steam. If you read the posts carefully you will see that most of us appreciate our employees a great deal, when reading recent posts about employee issues I already know something about the people posting them from past posts here and understand they aren't mean spirited but just frustrated, because they care about the people that work for them and the people who count on them.

Mike Finley · 06-23-2006, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHI

Now with this construction gig, I find I'm not as loose as far as joking around on site, but typically it's because I have 100 things going on in the brain at once. Things happen and I know I'e made alot of mistakes too and that's how I learned so it's hard for me to act god like and hollar at them for a screw up that I've done myself since **** happens. I just dont like consistant screw ups...then I'm a azzhole

The guys can BS all they want so long as their productive, for me I'ce always kept the mouth shut and nose to the grinding stone then joke around after I'm done. wish I could joke when I'm working all day long, but I've never been that way.

I'm exactly the same way. I'm a firm believer in the work hard / play hard school of life, but also a firm believer in there is a time and place for work and a time and place for play. On the job I want to see you working, especially when your skills aren't unquestionable yet. Become a pro with the ability and knowledge to get things done quickly and be productive, have your sh!t together and everything under control and you can relax and do it at your pace.

Grumpy · 06-23-2006, 08:45 AM

George, it sounds like you have worked out all the bugs. The only thing I disagree with is the open book idea.

George Z · 06-23-2006, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

George, it sounds like you have worked out all the bugs. The only thing I disagree with is the open book idea.

I am not sure I have, there is one coming almost always one minute late, but she works hard all day and sure makes up for it.
She also has the tendency not to feel the greatest on a few Mondays.
Our exterior crew leader forgets to shave once in a while, or doesn't replace his whites as often but he is getting better.
They all like to go early on Fridays, etc, etc.
These are normal problems, I accept them, joke about them,
we are all human and far from perfect.
At any moment I am training myself to be conscious about how I treat them.
There are times it is not easy but I am convinced they care and if they screw up something
it likely is a mistake or they weren't there 100%
If I make it wortwhile for them to have this job, financially or otherwise they will care.
We have monthly meetings as well.
Not the usual boring company meetings, they are literally interrogated
to bring everything that bothers them to the table and we make it a point to follow up.

Grumpy · 06-23-2006, 11:01 AM

Hell if those were my only problems with running a crew, I would hire more employees.

**Double-A** · 07-30-2006, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Z

I am not sure I have, there is one coming almost always one minute late, but she works hard all day and sure makes up for it.
She also has the tendency not to feel the greatest on a few Mondays.
Our exterior crew leader forgets to shave once in a while, or doesn't replace his whites as often but he is getting better.
They all like to go early on Fridays, etc, etc.
These are normal problems, I accept them, joke about them,
we are all human and far from perfect.
At any moment I am training myself to be conscious about how I treat them.
There are times it is not easy but I am convinced they care and if they screw up something
it likely is a mistake or they weren't there 100%
If I make it wortwhile for them to have this job, financially or otherwise they will care.
We have monthly meetings as well.
Not the usual boring company meetings, they are literally interrogated
to bring everything that bothers them to the table and we make it a point to follow up.

George, my thoughts on employee problems are this;

Its a problem for me, if its a problem for the company. The worker that is always a minute late - office or field? Field, its a problem. Office, I wouldn't even notice it.

Field super that doesn't look professional? Problem. When you're in front of the client, you're in the spotlight. You can't look like you just got off work frist thing in the morning. If you can't look freshly groomed in a clean work outfit, its time to rethink your compenstation package. I'm not paying extra for second class. Would you?

Going home early on Fridays, one of my pet peeves. We agreed on your work schedule. In order to earn the level of compenstation you're getting, work the schedule. If you want off early on Fridays, then lets change the schedule. How does working half days on Sundays work for you?

Now, don't get me wrong George, I'm not a hard ass. I face these types of things with my folks too, but I ask them these questions keeping it lighthearted and tell them to think about it and we'll talk later. I let them stew about it and then ask them to come see me (day or two later) and ask what they have decided to do. I'm flexible and openminded, but they call it a "workday" for a reason.

donb1959 · 07-30-2006, 07:34 PM

I now have 3 employees, they work very hard, are efficient, trustworthy, clean, quality oriented, etc. I treat them like I would like to be treated. I have worked for hardnosed bosses, they could always get more out of me with respect. I pay my guys well. We all know exactly what is expected out of them, the rules never vary. We have a good time at work, and that's the way I like it.

I would never open our books to them, it just opens a can of worms, and could cause dissention in the group, I'm not willing to risk that, and I know they're not concerned with what my books say, so long as they are being treated well.

George Z · 07-30-2006, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-A

George, my thoughts on employee problems are this;

Its a problem for me, if its a problem for the company. The worker that is always a minute late - office or field? Field, its a problem. Office, I wouldn't even notice it.

Field super that doesn't look professional? Problem. When you're in front of the client, you're in the spotlight. You can't look like you just got off work frist thing in the morning. If you can't look freshly groomed in a clean work outfit, its time to rethink your compenstation package. I'm not paying extra for second class. Would you?

Going home early on Fridays, one of my pet peeves. We agreed on your work schedule. In order to earn the level of compenstation you're getting, work the schedule. If you want off early on Fridays, then lets change the schedule. How does working half days on Sundays work for you?

Now, don't get me wrong George, I'm not a hard ass. I face these types of things with my folks too, but I ask them these questions keeping it lighthearted and tell them to think about it and we'll talk later. I let them stew about it and then ask them to come see me (day or two later) and ask what they have decided to do. I'm flexible and openminded, but they call it a "workday" for a reason.

I agree, and see these things as something to improve on

George Z · 07-30-2006, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donb1959

I now have 3 employees, they work very hard, are efficient, trustworthy, clean, quality oriented, etc. I treat them like I would like to be treated. I have worked for hardnosed bosses, they could always get more out of me with respect. I pay my guys well. We all know exactly what is expected out of them, the rules never vary. We have a good time at work, and that's the way I like it.

I would never open our books to them, it just opens a can of worms, and could cause dissention in the group, I'm not willing to risk that, and I know they're not concerned with what my books say, so long as they are being treated well.

You will be surprised how interested they are in how we did in this job or the other.
They know what my salary and pay stubb is, what the net profit is and what the overhead is.
What is there to hide?
Besides, their well being is closely tied to the well being of the company.

Labour and materials are 50% and not negotiable.
They have no problem knowing where the rest goes.

Jon F · 07-31-2006, 01:46 PM

GeorgeZ,

Question: At your 50% margin, what will you do when you start hiring more employees and the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in.....do you already have a Failsafe/plan for this that everyone is aware of? At this point, do you feel you have a formula in place that will allow you to hire 10,20 more people and still run this system efficiently??

Reason I ask--it seems as though it would have to be dynamic, even to the point of adding one,two workers. Staff. Bookeeper. Do you have a model to follow, or are you forging the path?

...Another thing: I know for me, some jobs end up better than others. Right now, we are on a job where the physical labor has turned out to be far harder than we assumed, and since that comes out of additional labor, that comes out of the bottom line (my money). In your plan, you always come out even, and the emps are the ones that have the ups and downs on jobs (assuming it all works out in the end). One job they make $8 per hour, the next they make $15 per hour. Are they okay with this X factor???

Stone Mountain · 07-31-2006, 02:44 PM

Hi george, it was good meeting you a couple of weeks ago.
When it comes to employees, I always try to treat them with respect. Last Thursday for example, I picket up a $6000 cheque from a customer, who was thrilled with the work. I immediately called the carpenter, and told him how happy the customer was and how good the job looked.

One of our guys blew the motor in his truck. I wound up fronting the money for the rebuild. He's paying me back.
Another guy asked me to pick up a hand digger for him (I special ordered one for the company, so we got one for him as well). When it came in, he told me to take the cost off his bill. I gave it to him as a bonus.

We arranged insurance for another fellow, and yet another man(age 44) got his first ever new vehicle (A Dodge Dakota), directly because a good friend of ours is the fleet manager at a local dealership.

When I have money in the bank, I give everyone advances (most guys work on a fee per job), so that they can gi home on Friday with their heads up.

Unhappy, unrespected people simply do not produce. If you do not nurture them, and treat them like real people, they won't last very long!

**Double-A** · 07-31-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fife

GeorgeZ,

Question: At your 50% margin, what will you do when you start hiring more employees and the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in.....do you already have a Failsafe/plan for this that everyone is aware of? At this point, do you feel you have a formula in place that will allow you to hire 10,20 more people and still run this system efficiently??

Reason I ask--it seems as though it would have to be dynamic, even to the point of adding one,two workers. Staff. Bookeeper. Do you have a model to follow, or are you forging the path?

I'm struggling to follow you here Jon. Can you give an example of how George would suffer by adding employees? The reason I ask this is, if the employees are income producing, then George's overhead can actually go down, to a point. One person can handle payroll and beni's for a lot of people.

Jon F · 07-31-2006, 08:40 PM

DoubleA,

I'll assume:

1) With 5 emps and doing painting, he operates from home.
2) Does his own books.
3) Does his own sales.
4) Is probably the job Super.
5) Doesn't have bennies, etc.

If he adds 10 emps, I'D ASSUME:

1) He'd need an office/warehouse/yard.
2) Need help with books/phone/office.
3) Need at the least one estimator (guess)
4) Would have 1,2 people in positions of management.
5) Be starting to think of adding bennie package, etc.
6) And also consider, depending on his locale, being able to do TRIPLE the amount of work may mean you have to do FIVE TIMES the amount of advertising (possibly visaversa)

DoubleA, do you see a way that he'd be able to triple the amount of work they are doing and not incurr at least some of this overhead? Perhaps we are crossed up and dealing with a "sub" situation as opposed to an emp situation,

**Double-A** · 07-31-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fife

DoubleA,

I'll assume:

1) With 5 emps and doing painting, he operates from home.
2) Does his own books.
3) Does his own sales.
4) Is probably the job Super.
5) Doesn't have bennies, etc.

If he adds 10 emps, I'D ASSUME:

1) He'd need an office/warehouse/yard.
2) Need help with books/phone/office.
3) Need at the least one estimator (guess)
4) Would have 1,2 people in positions of management.
5) Be starting to think of adding bennie package, etc.
6) And also consider, depending on his locale, being able to do TRIPLE the amount of work may mean you have to do FIVE TIMES the amount of advertising (possibly visaversa)

DoubleA, do you see a way that he'd be able to triple the amount of work they are doing and not incurr at least some of this overhead? Perhaps we are crossed up and dealing with a "sub" situation as opposed to an emp situation,

I'll let George respond to your assumptions then I'll come back and reread what you've posted.
Also, remember George is in Canada. I know nothing about labor laws or business models in Canada. He might have some advantages that we in the USA (home of the Shyster-in-a-Box®) don't enjoy. He might also be smarter than we.