Side Work

specwood

We have a written policy that our employees are not to do side work for our customers. Recently we have had a customer approach two employees separately asking them to come and do side work for them. My professional and reliable employees both declined, explaining that they signed an agreement not to take side work from my customers, and that even if they didn't sign anything they would not do it out of loyalty. (This is what I was told by my lead)

Based on what I've been told by my lead, the customer was fairly persistent in her efforts to convince him to do some extra work (I assume on a cash basis).

I am sure that others have had this experience. I want to address this with my customer, especially since they owe me money. I also want my employees to know how much I appreciate their honesty. Finally, I want to make an addition to my contract regarding this type of situation. I think customers should be discouraged from this kind of thing. They are basically undermining our industry by doing this. Imagine a doctor being asked to fix something "on the side"!!!

Like, "Hey doc, think you could fix this bum kidney for me over the weekend? (wink, wink) I could pay you cash. What do they pay you around here anyway? C'mon man, I'm just trying to save a few bucks..."

Ok, so we don't have doctors working for us, but it just is not right!

mdshunk

I encourage my guys to do whatever side work they want. Matter of fact, I've even turned down work and gave them the cell number of one of my guys, if they're interested. I do not, however, want them doing it for anyone on my current customer list. There's plenty of work for everyone, and a guy doing a little work on the side isn't going to affect me one bit (and certainly won't effect my industry). There's a certain demographic in my industry, when faced with having no work done at all, or paying a contractor, will have no work done at all. A fella doing a little side work helps them enjoy a little more safety and comfort for a reasonable fee. I could actually care less whether the guy has proper insurance and such, since that does not effect me. That's on him, and I hope for his own sake that he's got his duck's in a row.

Rules preventing sidework on a wholesale basis are flatly illegal, so says my attorney. I don't mind anyhow. I'll even loan tools if it'll help a guy out. Now, if I guy's working until midnight on side work, and comes into work dead tired, making mistakes, that's another issue altogether. That's a cause for discipline.

specwood

First I'll clarify that I am speaking strictly of a situation where my employees are approached by the customer while he was working for me, and this was in the home during work hours and it was for work that was additional to the work we were performing.

Second, I also think side work is fine, but I do have a problem with my guys using my lettered vehicles, wearing my shirts/hats, and representing themselves as my employees while they are doing side work. This means that if they screw up and the house burns down, my insurance may be on the line.

I do offer our tools for side work.

mdshunk

In that case, I'd tell the fellas how much I appreciate their "bigness" for not taking the work. I'd also not inform the customer that I know. There's no profit in letting the customer know that you know, or in letting them know you're upset. This sorta thing happens all the time, I can assure you. It's just rare that you hear about it. Thank your lucky stars that your men are ethical enough not to undermine your customer base.

realpurty2

This subject has been heavily debated on here before, but it's worthy of all opinions. We all run our business according to our own desires. I would definately put a bonus in the next payroll along with a thank you for the guys who declined to do the side work. Those type workers are hard to find.

We too have a policy and agreement against side work but the rational behind it is not the same as I've seen posted by others. I do not restrict side work to prevent anyone from making a living, or for fear of losing the customer but rather to prevent liability that trickles back onto our company and our reputation.

If one of our employees does work under our supervision, we are responsible for his actions. We are onsite to guide and supervise, or able to correct imperfections before they are an issue. If one of our guys takes side work and doesn't get it right, it's my phone that rings and suddenly the employee that did the side work becomes "the guy from K&R that I hired to fix my (whatever) really messed it up." I simply do not want that responsibility for work performed that the company had nothing to do with.

When the customer asks one of our guys for side work, and I find out about it, I place a friendly call or visit to the H.O. and ask about the work they are wanting done. If it is something small and simple, I tell them we will take care of it at no additional cost. If it's major work, I explain that because the employee is part of our company and covered under our license and insurance, we can not authorize the side work to be completed while we are still on-site unless it is performed as an amendment to the original contract or change order. Depending on the task and skill level of the worker, I will sometimes tell the customer that the employee they are wanting is excellent at the task they want done and if they are willing to wait until our work is complete, there would be no problem to hire the guy for side work. If it's something I know is over the employee's head, I tell the customer that the task is beyond his particular skill level in an unsupervised environment and encourage them to add it to our scope of work so that it gets done correctly the first time or atleast re-consider who they are selecting to do the side work. So far, in the end, we end up doing the work within the company and no business relationships were harmed between the employee, the client, and our company as a whole. The customer still gets their work done either way, and are usually grateful that we offered a solution that gave them choices.

If and when I find out one of the employees does do side work without authorization while we are still on site, call me an ogre but they are out the door. I've seen it happen too many times to other contractors where an employee goes in, does something on a Saturday, and when all is said and done, it was the contractor who took the fall. I'm just not willing to allow that risk.

__________________
Woman in a Man's World.

specwood

Well that sums it up nicely. Thanks Realpurty.

mdshunk

Would you ellaborate on that. I think that statement is a bunch of crap urban legend. How could a contractor possibly have any liability for work he didn't perform. C'mon! Jeeze.

realpurty2

I could throw out a few examples md... but here is a recent one from that now defunct company we considered buying into.

The contractor was hired to do a basement remodel. The tub above it was leaking (very small leak that took time to be evident, just a drip here and there) somewhere in the ceiling causing drips into the basement area. The employee took side work to repair the leak. His method of fixing it was to mud over the stains on the ceiling and repaint it... doing nothing for the leak. He told the GC that he had done a full repair and all water was stopped. It looked good and as a finished product, no one could tell he hadn't cut into the ceiling, fixed the leaking pipe as claimed, then patched and repainted the ceiling. He got paid, the GC finished his basement remodel and got paid. Two months later, long after the employee had quit and moved out of state, the GC got an irate phone call and had to go repair the leak and replace the ceiling at his expense because the H.O. claimed it was done under the GC and was one of his employees. The "well, he worked for you so I assumed he was compent" speech..

Granted, if it had turned into a legal battle, the GC could have proved it was actually not his work, but how many of us will go fight it out to prove a point rather than just go make the repair and get the customer settled back down.

It isn't urban legend, it can happen, and the potential damage to a companies reputation often isn't worth the cost of just fixing it to keep peace.

Elaborated enough or do you want more?

__________________
Woman in a Man's World.

mdshunk

It is, indeed. The GC in your case was just gutless. Besides, the employee in your example was doing work for one of the GC's customers, which is almost never permitted by any employer. Show me an example of an employee doing work for a customer of his own harvesting, and having that come back on the GC. It just ain't happening, and making rules against such is flatly illegal. I'm telling ya.

specwood

Let's say your customer calls one of your employees directly at his home on a Saturday and asks him to come and install a new light fixture. Your employee does it and takes 50 bucks to install it for the homeowner, no problem. Lets say that your employee is given a company vehicle (I don't know if yours do, mine do) and he does the work on Saturday with a company vehicle, wearing a company hat, using all the tools necessary to do the job.

The house burns to the ground on Sunday. Mom, Dad and two young boys die in the fire. The house is a total loss and there is nothing left but the foundation. The family is going to want to know why their son, daughter and grand-kids died. They hire lawyers, who hire forensic experts to find out what happened. The company that insures the house (they have to pay too you know. They have a contract). They are gonna hire their own experts too to find out why the fire started. Mom and Dad had a life insurance policy. That company is also going to want to know how their policy holder died and before they pay the 1M dollar settlement, they are going to want to make sure no one committed suicide. They will hire their own experts too.

Since the house burned to the ground, there is no conclusive evidence as to how the fire started.

Neighbors report that your truck was seen in front of the home the day prior to the fire.

Lawyers representing the estate of Mom and Dad aren't going to care what you or your employee says about any "side work". Neither is a jury who just heard testimony from a grieving Gramma and Grampa.

You are going to be on the hook in one way or another. You might not be found liable, but you'll have to defend the case. That means that your insurance company will have to pay lawyers to defend you. Insurance companies will pay lots of money to lawyers on your behalf. That counts against you as far as the insurance company is concerned, even if there are no damages found in a court of law.

I have 9 years experience as a liability insurance adjuster handing construction related claims.

The "he" you refer to in your post is your business, not you. The jury in a wrongful death suit isn't going to care that "you" didn't do the work, they will look at your company. The company that bought the liability insurance policy (hopefully. otherwise they WILL look to you).

Trust me. Been there, seen it, and quite that biz altogether. Insurance companies, lawyers, and yes, customers, will crack you in the face with a baseball bat when the s@#t hits the fan.

Do not doubt me, I used to make a living that way.

As an adjuster, the most common reply I had from contractors in liability cases was "we weren't even working there when it happened".

Now. How should I explain to this homeowner that we do not condone the practice of allowing our employees to do sidework for our current customers, with our company vehicles and our company tools?

mdshunk

Your story is totally hypothetical, and doesn't happen. I know you just made it up. Post a link to anything that says exactly what you just typed there. It just doesn't happen. Plain and simple. An employee doing sidework is not the company doing the work, regardless of what impression anyone might have. I know, it's the insurance company's job to go after the deep pocket, but they do not succeed except with gutless company owners. You can't scare me...

specwood

BTW - None of my previous posts apply if the contractor primarily does business "Conveniently in the middle of nowhere".

We are in NY state. We have more lawyers than mosquitoes (and we actually have a lot of mosquitoes where I live!)

I envy you shunk! We live in a litigous region of a litigous state.

Need any carpenters in PA?

dirt diggler

Yeah I agreee with what you're saying --- however, if they want to do work on their own time (NOT YOURS) with their OWN TOOLS, TRUCK, ETC --- I say "have at it."

Let em get a taste of it

specwood

Your so brave.

I'm gonna toughen myself up. SCREW EM ALL! If I get sued, I'll just throw those papers in the trash.

Why then I'll just ignore those subpeonas, then when the Sheriff comes to get me because I missed my court date, I'll just tell him to quit buggin me. I've got work to do.

I made the story up, but it was based on several true stories.

One case involved an condo that started on fire and injured several elderly people. The cause was an air conditioner that was installed "on the side".

One case involved a private business and an employee that was crushed by a falling piece of equipment that was installed "on the side".

One case involved a person who was killed by a backhoe that was being used on a "side job".

One case actually involved a helicopter that was being transported on a flatbed truck that was destroyed when it hit a bridge. The driver had acted on his own to deliver another small load and went off the established route to make another delivery "on the side".

theworx

Md and Spec, you are both making good points but on different scenarios. Md is talking about his guys doing work unrelated to his company and not for his clients. Spec, you're talking about your employees doing extra work for your clients using your company truck, uniform and tools. They are different cases and you are both right in what you have said. There is no point in arguing over different situations.

I'm in total agreement that if your company was hired to do a job and one of your employees does some extra work for the client at that job site (on the side) that this is totally wrong (anything pertaining to that job should be run through the company). I also agree that a talented employee has the right to do side work in his spare time for customers unrelated to his employer, in his spare time to make a few extra bucks... And that should not cause any problem for his employer because the work has nothing to do with the company. If he screws up it's on his shoulders not yours...

I personally am an employee for a commercial GC (we build and remodel offices and retail outlets). I do a lot of side work as well. Many of our commercial clients have called me personally to do some work on their homes and I do. Patching, painting, etc... My boss has gotten a little annoyed because I met these people on his job site but I'm working in a residential home for Joe Blow (an accountant at the Manitoba Telephone System). MTS is my bosses client, not Joe Blow not to mention it's residential (my boss does commercial work). I also get lot's of calls personally for commercial work and allways pass it along to my boss to be run through the company. So we both know it works both ways (I get leads for side jobs by working for him and he get's leads for commercial work from me doing side jobs).

Grumpy

I spoke in the chatroom about this last night. My policy is no moonlighting. I would obviously make exceptions for close family and immediate neighbors of the employee, in those situations I would even be willing to buy the materials on my account so they get my volume discount.

I want every employee to feel the same sence of unity that I do. I basically want loyalty. I explained that every employee is a sales person for my company. If they want to sell a job I will pay them a salesman's commission. Then they'd get the installation labor wage, there would be no reason for them to do any side work.

I'm a fair guy and if for some reason we were in a slump I wouldn't prevent them from feeding their families but if I am keeping them busy 30-50 hours a week there is no excuse for them to pull side work.

Bottom line is anything over 50 hours and the human body starts to slow down. I want my guys at top performance not sluggish because they are competing against me.

If theworx worked for me he'd be fired immediately. Not necessarily for doing the side work, but definetly for stealing customers from the company. This is another reason I don't like the moonlighting. The next step is them passing out THEIR cards on MY sites.

specwood

I would like to put something in our contract stating that our customer will not ask our employees to do side work while we are working on their house.

I am going to discuss this with the current customer as well.

theworx

If you fired me immediately you would lose all the the leads that, at this point, I generate for my boss (and they are plentiful). If you were doing a big commercial job and the secretary asked one of your handy employees to come over on Saturday and install a door handle, would you fire him. That's unrelated to what you do. If he did a good job and someone else phoned him (because he did good work on his side job) for more work related to what you do and he brought it to you to be run through the company would you fire him?

I bring my boss more leads for work than he can find on his own. I do the estimating and run the jobs for him as we land them. Last week alone I got 3 phone calls from aquaintences of people I've done side work for (who work in industry) and have three jobs to estimate for my boss, One for Arctic Glacier, I built the roof on the managers cottage (the biggest ice producer in the world, reno to their computer room) and their home office is in Winnipeg, National Leasing, I built a rec room for one of their bigwigs (big reno coming up), and Pet Land, I patched and painted a room for the owner (a pet food store they want to renovate). All of these leads came from my side work. That's just in one week.

So go ahead, fire me. I'll just take your business instead of running it through your company... Sorry for patching and painting one wall for an employee at the Manitoba Telephone System on a Saturday for $100.00. My bosses client is The Manitoba Telephone System not June the secretary who noticed I was handy!!! Like he would make anything off that anyway!!!

theworx

Tell you what Grumpy you could not find a more dedicated employee than me. Iv'e been with the company for 20 years. Two years ago we lost our sales person and things were very slow. I've since taken on the responsibility of sales, estimating, and running the jobs (organizing sub trades and performing my own aspect of the work). Not to mention scheduling the work.

Half this stuff I don't get paid for. But it creates work for me and my boss makes his profit from it. That is my no. 1 concern I get my hours and my boss makes a profit (he treats me well).

I could easily go on my own again and steal work from my boss, but so far I'm happy getting my hours in and learning the proper way to estimate.... For now I'll keep it this way...

R&S Exteriors

Hey Grumpy if you want every employee to feel the same sense of duty that you do, but refuse to ALLOW them to do side jobs then pay them the same yearly income that you pay yourself.

You call that fair. As long as you give your SLAVES 30 hours a week, enough to feed their family they should be so happy and so devoted to you that they should not want anything more. Maybe some cloths for their kids or a car newer than 20 years old.

Your 50 hour thing is bull too. That is a minimum for me. 80 - 90 hours is normal during the busy seasons. I cut back to 40 during the winter. I'll get plenty of rest when I die why should I sleep it away now. It's not up to YOU how many hours someone works. If they are not performing properly, for whatever reason, then let them no that and let them know that if they do not improve they are gone. Then they make the decision on what to do about their performance.

What you are doing is highly illegal. You have control over your employee work performance while your are paying them (thats it). Your not their GOD or a King. If they want to work on weekends or a few hours at night, for a HO, Unrelated to your business, they have right to do so.

ALso for the other posters. If an employee does something on the side and the GC had nothing to do with that HO then they will not be held liable for anything that employee does on his own.

Too many GC's think they have the RIGHT to control every aspect of an employee's life. THEY DON"T.