Should You Charge For.....

Ed the Roofer

Every year, we get at least 1-2 customers who waited untl the end of the year to either get an estimate or finally decide to proceed with the proposal submitted previously.

Today, around the NorthWestern suburbs of Chicago, we are getting all sorts of combination of wintry weather mix hitting us.

I am near completion on one job and just signed another one earlier this week with the intended start date of this coming Tuesday.

Roofing prices are a fixed contract price with a per square foot or per lineal foot additional charge for various wood replacement, but what about the weather slowing things down?

If the roof needs to be shoveled or we have to proactively do additional temporary tarping throughout the day, would it be reasonable to request a change order for weather related matters, or is it best to just tell them to wait until things clear up?

I already accept the fact that winter temperatures slows down the production, but removal of snow to be able to do the work seems like a necessary requirement that was not initially in any proposal.

How do others deal with this to cover ther butts so they don't spend too much on non-contracted work, just to be able to get to the contracted work agreed to?

Do you just suck it up and eat the extra costs or do you wait it out or do you feel you justly deserve to be compensated for it?

Thanks,

Ed

Chris Johnson

Hey Ed, As most know I originally hailed from Ontario Canada and between Nov 15 and May 15 we paid extra to heat concrete ($ 10.00 per meter) as well in most rural areas we had half load season between Mar 15 and May 15 which meant a standard 9 meter concrete truck could only carry 1 to 1.5 meters of concrete resulting in an underload charge of $ 50.00 per truck. I made clients aware of this and charged accordingly to what I was paying. The winter heat charge wasn't bad usually under $ 2k per house, the underload was a killer, I presented a customer an with additional invoice for $ 4000.00 which he agreed to before we started, but what a waste considering it was the beginning of May. He couldn't afford to lose the timeframe.

Winter heat was another killer for builders, used to be $ 4-5k for a custom home being built in the winter.

The crew used to work a little slower in the winter (Heavy Clothing, etc.) I used to eat that, at least we were working.

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oldfrt

I've always put off roof projects till better weather arrives.All the HO's agree with the rescheduling.
If I happen to get stuck in the middle of a roof with a storm approaching,I'll suck it in and do what I have to protect the job site.
It seems rather assuming to ask for a change order because of the extra time involved in completing a project due to something the HO has no control over.
But,if the HO insisted on starting a job when the weather is bound to turn against us,I'd have them consider payment for delays and extra time involved as a detriment to rescheduling.

KillerToiletSpider

My nephew owns a roofing company, and has a clause in his contracts for that charges a flat rate per square for snow removal as needed. On new work he does not do the roof on days where snow removal would have to be done, as developers will not pay for snow removal.

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Putty Truck

I just cleared a sewer stoppage in a snowstorm. It had crossed my mind to charge extra, but I was having problems clearing the line, so I waited to see if the HO was ammendable on replacing the sewer. She was and I let the extra "blizzard charge" go unspoken. I'll be replacing the sewer next week.

But ya see where I'm going with this? Why hit them up for more and potentially lose a bigger job...

MattCoops

Shoveling snow on roofs sucks.
I remember we used to torch it with propane tanks.

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BigMikeB

You should have a line in your contract that states, this price is based on normal working conditions, snow removal and temporary weather protection will be extra.

Vinny

Ed, you know I'm no roofer and I dont play one on television but I have simalar issues with my work as well.

Right now I am flooded with every potatoe head that thought they should wait until GOK,s when, to do a project that really should be done in optimal conditions.

I take this approach. If we can do it succesfully and in the end its a job we didnt think we would get in, its a bonus for us even if the actual margin falls a little below the projected. And if you can get a little extra for the agrivation, great.

But at times if I want to keep a couple of key guys buisy, I'll do it just for that, knowning I'll have to tarp and heat the bugger just to keep a couple of guys making a pay check. But for them, not me.

If it were for me though, I wouldnt bother to remove the covers this time of year.

I waited 3 hours today for the asphalt plant to dethaw so I could pave a small road before the snow fly's. The fact is if you didnt make it in the past 40 weeks, you aint gonna make it in the next 12.

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silvertree

If you were a lawyer and had to write with heavier ink because your client had cataracts you would probably charge extra and get it. I think it's a reasonable request, but I can see resistance from many customers. As a carpenter I have heard more than once" I think I'll have you do the work in the winter when it slows down and rates are lower", talk about urban legends.

wackman

I think I probably would unless you think it'll cost you to many jobs or make you uncompetitive.

You can always look for ways to be more efficient. I've done that a few times instead of just raising prices and found more profit that way.

Wack

dirt diggler

Ed - at least for what i do - there's no such thing as "winter discount" - in fact, there are certain preparations to be made if a project is done over the winter - that really add up


Something that might apply to other trades:

if you're not dealing with snow - it's probably cold. Your guys might move slower in the winter; which will decrease production. Days are shorter. The holidays get in the way kinda ...

On the flip - you could sell these jobs in the winter with the notion that the customer will receive more attention than in the spring/summer when things are busier & more hectic.


or ... have em sign up for a spot once March rolls around

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silvertree

Dirt Diggler, I do use that line about "You'll get more attention from everyone in the winter". And it's generally true. And it does cost us more to do the job when it's cold.

deckman22

I always state on my proposals that the price is good 60 days. Materials go up, conditions change (like weather) so this gives me a right to charge more if they wait past the 60 days.

Tell the customer if they want it done now it will cost X amount more or they can wait til there's no snow.

Al

Ed the Roofer

I have not charged for this in the past, but yesterdays ice storm got me thinking back on a job we did in1998.

It snowed very heavy right after Thanksgiving.

I sent guys to snow rake the bulk off and waited for the interior heat to melt the rest.

Then it snowed again, snow rake, snow again, repeat.....

On the job I am on now, we are almost done with one more lined up afterwards. I like to think that if any HO is naive enough to schedule near oncoming inclement weather, they should share the potential burden of the costs required due to their lack of planning.

I do not discount for winter work because of the reasons Dirt and others mentioned. Shorter days, Holiday interuptions, excessive clothing, cold compressors, and slower work productivity.

If the HO ordered the job and it was due to my schedule backlog that the job wound up in the wintry weather potential, I would not even consider extra charges, but for somone who signed up last week, I will definitely be thinking about it.

I just wanted to get a feel for the cross talk about the ethics involved. I guess as long as it is a part of the contract, then that covers the ethical concerns.

Ed

rino1494

Agreed. If you are in the middle of a project, then I say, just suck it up. If you are bidding new work, then explain to them the situations. Tell them that it will cost more if the weather is not favorable or they can wait until spring. If you are having problems with giving customers a price and they wait till 6 months later to go ahead, you should put on your proposal, that price is only good for 30 days.

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mahlere

Ed...the simple answer is YES....

you have to charge for everything you do...

now, the real question is do you charge directly or indirectly? that's the question...

chexfive

Ed,

With roofing material prices going up every other week (lol) I always put a 30 day limit on the proposal. If I haven't heard from them within 2 weeks I give them a call and remind them that the proposal is only good for 30 days, at which time another proposal could be written if they are serious about getting the job done.

Extra work is extra work = Extra money. Just be honest and tell the customer the truth. Most homeowners I deal with are pretty smart and would see my side of the situation and agree as long as the cost aren't ourageous. If they accept the proposition thats good, if not you can always cave in and do the job at no extra cost, if you need the work. (lol)

You probably should be charging more anyway because I'm sure roofing materials, gas and ect has gone up since you did that estimate.

Good luck,
Chris

Grumpy

ONLY 1 or 2? Wow I have about 10 right now, people still asking if we can get it done this year, and as you know 3-6" of snow last night.

As we briefly discussed on the phone last week, I usually just eat the cost of shoveling the snow. I do encourage the customer to wait until warmer weather for shingle roofs, but that is for quality concerns (blow offs due to lack of sealing)... but if the customer can't wait and the job is already bid, I will eat the cost usually.

Why do I eat the cost? It keeps the guys working which keeps the bills paid and the only person who feels the pinch is me. It does eat into the profit slightly, but we certainly don't lose any money (we just don't make as much). If you are tearing off the roof already, tearing off the snow with it, isn't really that much extra work.

Another thing, is we tell the home owners there is a potential we might miss some garbage in the snow (even with all our tarps and protection) that won't be seen until the snow melts. They never do call, and I am convinced they clean the little bit up themselves, but this way we are giving them notice. I've found if you prepare someone for the potential of a problem, when it does occur it softens the blow. However if I were not to inform these people and they do find garbage, their opinion of us will lessen since we promise clean job sites.

Now if there were a job I just didn't want to tackle until spring, I may use the additional wintery effects change order you discussed as a method of convincing them to wait.

Grumpy

Urban legend? This is so damned true it's unbelieveable. It seems like every time dick and harry lowers their rates in the spring just to get work. People are starving for work, since we are seasonal, and since they don't know how to sell will lower their rates. So this is no urban legend.

I will even give various incentives to customers this year who decide to wait until next spring for their work, like free temporary repairs or tarps on their jobs. We also run sales, where we send out coupons at various times of the year to improve sales slumps, and a 10% discount on roofing and siding will be going out abotu February so in March we are fully booked and ready to hit the floor running. FYI, we have 5% marked into our costs for discounts and negotiation, then offer an additional 5% to give the 10% discount. Then once we get up to speed (Sale Expires May 15th, don't Delay!!!) the sales stop and the price goes back up to normal.

If someone tells me they want to wait until spring the sales mode kicks in. well that's great news, I can even lock you in at this years rates. Just sign here and give me a down payment and we won't pass along the price increase we have every spring. This is two closes in in, the impending doom close and the take away close. First you are taking away the thought of a lower price and they no longer want a discount, now they will fight you to do it for your originally quoted price. Second you are putting a time line on this price increase encouraging their fast action. I don't like playign games or using gimicks and usually don't use traditonal sales "closes" like I described here... but when a customer wants to start playing games with me, they really have no idea who they are messing with.

Grumpy

That really is the question. Perfect statement Mahlere. Do you mark it into your bottom line and spread it evenly amongst all customers, or do you charge this specific customer for it? I guess Ed's real question is should he increase his markup, as I have done, or should he just charge each specific customer.

I mark up all my costs, which breaks out to be about 40%. If I look at my custom quote spreadsheet I see this... 25% base markup, 5% negotiation, 2% margin of error, 11% salesman. This is THE cheapest we can work for and not lose money, but as you see there are three variables which can be changed. 5% for negotiation, I can give away or be used to absorb things like shoveling snow, 2% is margin for error used to absorb minor estimating errors or production over runs or shoveling snow. 11% is the salesman's commission which is variable with their permission.

The funny thing is even thought he sales commission is variable, with their permission to change it, some guys have no problem cutting it to get a job in budget and some won't cut it even 1%. I had one guy who's uncle wanted a new roof. He asked what the cheapest we could do it for, I told him "knock off the 5% and the rest comes from your commission." He refused to cut a penny and his uncle hired some local kids to do the job. LOL. Then I have another guy who has been selling roofs and siding for 16 years. Very successful guy, and he has no problem cutting his commission. 5% of something is better than 11% of nothing. When ever I tell him there is a mistake, his response is always "Just take it out of my cut." he doesn't even want to be bothered with it.