Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed

kevjob · 10-03-2006, 09:37 AM

Hey guys need your input on a situation with a sub contractor. I have a HVAC guy i use for venting ducting etc... Well anyway on my kitchen remodel with permits and inspections he ran some duct work for a kitchen fan and mounted a roof blower and extended a heat vent all passsed no problem. The problem is the gas line. The city wanted a pressure test of 20 lbs and so forth. Well the night before my inspection HVAC guy doesnt have the testing equipment compressor etc.. SO i drop off my compressor and the test fitting and he calls at 6 pm and tells me the gas line leaks and i say well look for it and fix it. His reply is well i shouldnt have to fix the existing gas line my response is as soon as you touch it you own it. He proceeds to give me some crap and tells me he willget to it when he can . My reply is b.s. fix it now or dont come back! He leaves so i call my plumber and offer 500.00 to fix it so i can pass and stay on schedule. So we are there till 9pm one night then a couple more hours the next day lighting pilot lights etc.. Hvac guy never calls me to see what happened. Today i get a billl for 300.00 more than his original price. The kicker is he never had me sign a contract so i want to give him 500.00 1/2 the original estimate so what should i do?

**ProWallGuy** · 10-03-2006, 10:06 AM

Problem with sub with no contract signed

Why does anyone do anything without a contract?
It's a recipe for disaster.

Peladu · 10-03-2006, 10:21 AM

Depends on what is considered a contract.
A verbal agreement under a certain price, is still considered a contract.

But the, "If you touch it you own it" part doesn't fly with me.
He stated that it was an existing pipe, which is a pre-existing problem.

Also why would you want a HVAC guy messing with existing gas lines?
HVAC maybe at the hot water, furnace hook up's I understand, but not on existing work.

I think I would have done exactly what the HVAC guy did...given only the information that you have supplied above.

**Teetorbilt** · 10-03-2006, 10:23 AM

No contract? How can he prove that he ever did ANYTHING for you or for how much? Tell him to take a hike!

When he comes back to fight for his money, you'll be sitting in the catbird's seat. You have the money, he wants it. I'd explain to him how you had to hire someone else to complete the job that he started to stay on schedule and negotiate from there.

dayexco · 10-03-2006, 10:37 AM

i agree with peladu, if the gas line was a pre existing condition, he should be compensated for it's repair

Double-A · 10-03-2006, 10:44 AM

I'd pay you what you agreed to.

And I agree with him not looking for and repairing a leak without additional money, if he's qualified to do so.

This is a classic change order situation. The old gas line won't hold for a pressure test. Its not your fault and not his. I think you're putting your schedule ahead of his qualifications and his willingness to bail you out of a situation he had no control over.

Given your side of things, I don't blame him for taking a walk. You've tossed your relationship with this guy over something beyond his control for the sake of your schedule. This is the type of thing that gives GC's such bad name with their subcontractors.

At this point, I'd call him and find out what the extra $300.00 is for and why he feels he's owed it. If its legitimate, I'd pay it. I think you two are not being business-like about this. Time to park the ego and mend some fences for the sake of this job, your lien waiver from him, and future jobs.

And Teetor, as long as Kev doesn't have a lien waiver, this sub is in the cat bird's seat.

copusbuilder · 10-03-2006, 11:06 AM

On top of that offering a plumber $500 to fix it so you can stay on schedule. My guess is you expect him to pay for that?? I do not think you are playing fair and I would have walked as well.
What good would a contract do in this situation other that sink you? I am sure he would not have agreed to repair any thing he has no control over.

Short lived life in contracting with that attitude

**joasis** · 10-03-2006, 12:28 PM

I think you are both wrong...you for not working with the hvac guy a little better, and him for not living up to the original estimate without explanation. No one can tell you how to handle this, but what I would do is either call and find out about the extra charge, or keep quiet and pay it, and move on. I would not use him again, but I would pay the bill as stated since my reputation is worth more then a few hundred dollars. You don't have to use him again, and the way you handled this, if I were him, I wouldn't work for you again. But that is just my opinion. I don't use contracts with my regular subs, but we are a small town, and their word and mine is what we work with...when I use someone I do not know, I do get it in writing.

mdshunk · 10-03-2006, 12:38 PM

If I owned everything I touched, I'd be poor or there'd be a long string of dead GC's.

It is very common for subs to uncover existing problems. It's never reasonable to expect them to pay for them. This is a change order thing. Insisting that the gasman take care of it right away might have happened if you also didn't expect him to finance that repair also. "I'll get to it when I can" would be my response too in an effort to give myself a little cooling off time to regroup my thoughts.

The extra 300 bucks was probably the HVAC man's way of getting paid for his aggrivation from you, as he knows full well that you won't call him back anymore and he probably doesn't want to work for you anymore. I might have been inclined to do the same thing, depending on my mood when I fired off the bill.

reveivl · 10-03-2006, 04:17 PM

I do remodeling/renos for a living and it had better not be "You touch it you own it". How could it be? Guy wants a different colour toilet and I quote him on the change out and then find the plumbing, sub-floor and framing are all fubar, I'm supposed to pay for the repairs because I touched it? Get real.

smellslike$tome · 10-03-2006, 06:46 PM

Why certainly Mr. Kevjob sir! I'll be more than happy, at no additional charge, to repair or better yet replace that 40 year old run of gas piping. I mean, after all I did run a branch from it to supply this new furnace I just installed. Tell you what, while I'm at it why don't I just replace all the gas piping in the house (there could be other leaks you know) since it's all connected to this new HVAC equipment I just installed. Of course it won't do at all to stop there so I'll just go ahead and put in a new water heater, range, and any other gas appliances I might find.

Are you out of your mind? I don't think there is anyway you can convince me that you didn't know better than to try and pull this off on him. Looks like to me that you tried to bully him into doing it either because you're a cheap s.o.b. or because you felt the pressure of your deadline.

P.S. guys like you are the reason I don't do anything without a written contract. In fact when a GC is involved in a remodel situation (I don't even do new work anymore) I require both the GC and the HO to sign the contract. The HO understands that in the event the GC doesn't pay for ANY REASON that they are responsible for any unpaid balance. I have no idea how that would stand up in court but after being burned by more than one "GC" it at least makes me feel better.

smellslike$tome · 10-03-2006, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevjob

Hey guys need your input on a situation with a sub contractor. I have a HVAC guy i use for venting ducting etc... Well anyway on my kitchen remodel with permits and inspections he ran some duct work for a kitchen fan and mounted a roof blower and extended a heat vent all passsed no problem. The problem is the gas line. The city wanted a pressure test of 20 lbs and so forth. Well the night before my inspection HVAC guy doesnt have the testing equipment compressor etc.. SO i drop off my compressor and the test fitting and he calls at 6 pm and tells me the gas line leaks and i say well look for it and fix it. His reply is well i shouldnt have to fix the existing gas line my response is as soon as you touch it you own it. He proceeds to give me some crap and tells me he willget to it when he can . My reply is b.s. fix it now or dont come back! He leaves so i call my plumber and offer 500.00 to fix it so i can pass and stay on schedule. So we are there till 9pm one night then a couple more hours the next day lighting pilot lights etc.. Hvac guy never calls me to see what happened. Today i get a billl for 300.00 more than his original price. The kicker is he never had me sign a contract so i want to give him 500.00 1/2 the original estimate so what should i do?

I just reread you're post and it does'nt look like any of the tasks you list that you had him do involve gas! Gas doesn't even enter the picture until you ask him to run a pressure test that you apparantly did'nt even know would be required until the code official (city) pointed it out to you. Ok so it looks like he charged you $300.00 to run the test, which failed, and you're crying because he did'nt run the test and fix everything in the gas distribution system that caused the test to fail and because he did'nt do it all for free.

kevjob · 10-03-2006, 08:03 PM

thnaks anyway

kevjob · 10-03-2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayexco

i agree with peladu, if the gas line was a pre existing condition, he should be compensated for it's repair

he didnt fix it i was more than glad to pay him but he didnt want to fix it and he had 3 weeks to test it and and tell me there is a problm i am neither cheap or an s.o.b my issue is he ahd no work for 2.5 weeks begging me to do this so i tried to help him out of a jam.

kevjob · 10-03-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reveivl

I do remodeling/renos for a living and it had better not be "You touch it you own it". How could it be? Guy wants a different colour toilet and I quote him on the change out and then find the plumbing, sub-floor and framing are all fubar, I'm supposed to pay for the repairs because I touched it? Get real.

yeah meaning he should have known there might be issues with the existing gas line why not talk to me i knew there might be problems with it and you touch it you own it is for the inspection part meaning if the existing leaks it needs to be fixed i never said for free. you said that have you ever tested a gas line that was pre existing? well i have and every one leaks but i know enough to put that in my bid and contract of which i never received.

kevjob · 10-03-2006, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teetorbilt

No contract? How can he prove that he ever did ANYTHING for you or for how much? Tell him to take a hike!

When he comes back to fight for his money, you'll be sitting in the catbird's seat. You have the money, he wants it. I'd explain to him how you had to hire someone else to complete the job that he started to stay on schedule and negotiate from there.

thanks but thats not the route i want to take i want to pay him whats fair.

kevjob · 10-03-2006, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-A

I'd pay you what you agreed to.

And I agree with him not looking for and repairing a leak without additional money, if he's qualified to do so.

This is a classic change order situation. The old gas line won't hold for a pressure test. Its not your fault and not his. I think you're putting your schedule ahead of his qualifications and his willingness to bail you out of a situation he had no control over.

Given your side of things, I don't blame him for taking a walk. You've tossed your relationship with this guy over something beyond his control for the sake of your schedule. This is the type of thing that gives GC's such bad name with their subcontractors.

At this point, I'd call him and find out what the extra $300.00 is for and why he feels he's owed it. If its legitimate, I'd pay it. I think you two are not being business-like about this. Time to park the ego and mend some fences for the sake of this job, your lien waiver from him, and future jobs.

And Teetor, as long as Kev doesn't have a lien waiver, this sub is in the cat bird's seat.

i have no problem with change orders but he should have known that was even a possibilty that the line would leak and not waited 2 weeks to test it.

kevjob · 10-03-2006, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smellslike$tome

I just reread you're post and it does'nt look like any of the tasks you list that you had him do involve gas! Gas doesn't even enter the picture until you ask him to run a pressure test that you apparantly did'nt even know would be required until the code official (city) pointed it out to you. Ok so it looks like he charged you $300.00 to run the test, which failed, and you're crying because he did'nt run the test and fix everything in the gas distribution system that caused the test to fail and because he did'nt do it all for free.

how do you know i didnt know? you are assuming an awful lot.

and he can do gas lines in other cities i work in,

go dart · 10-03-2006, 08:32 PM

i've been thru many gas lines that wouldn't pass a pressure test. our plumber is in house so this always ends up an extra to the homeowner.

kevjob · 10-03-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go dart

i've been thru many gas lines that wouldn't pass a pressure test. our plumber is in house so this always ends up an extra to the homeowner.

and i told the h.o from the start there might be some issues with the gas line so everyone but the guy working on it knew. lets just assume for a second that i am reputable and honest, i want to pay him for whats fair but no one will ever put my feet to the fire. I kept telling him to test it and got the same reply ah it wonty leak, famous last words.

10-03-2006, 09:37 AM	#1
kevjob View Profile kevjob Remodeling GC Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,033) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Remodeling GC Trade: Remodeling General Contractor Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,033	Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed Hey guys need your input on a situation with a sub contractor. I have a HVAC guy i use for venting ducting etc... Well anyway on my kitchen remodel with permits and inspections he ran some duct work for a kitchen fan and mounted a roof blower and extended a heat vent all passsed no problem. The problem is the gas line. The city wanted a pressure test of 20 lbs and so forth. Well the night before my inspection HVAC guy doesnt have the testing equipment compressor etc.. SO i drop off my compressor and the test fitting and he calls at 6 pm and tells me the gas line leaks and i say well look for it and fix it. His reply is well i shouldnt have to fix the existing gas line my response is as soon as you touch it you own it. He proceeds to give me some crap and tells me he willget to it when he can . My reply is b.s. fix it now or dont come back! He leaves so i call my plumber and offer 500.00 to fix it so i can pass and stay on schedule. So we are there till 9pm one night then a couple more hours the next day lighting pilot lights etc.. Hvac guy never calls me to see what happened. Today i get a billl for 300.00 more than his original price. The kicker is he never had me sign a contract so i want to give him 500.00 1/2 the original estimate so what should i do? __________________ Kevin Basement Finishing Highlands Ranch Colorado Littleton Colorado, Basement Remodeling Kitchen Remodeling Denver

10-03-2006, 10:06 AM	#2
ProWallGuy View Profile ProWallGuy Back from the dead... Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,544) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Back from the dead... Trade: Paperhanger/Painter Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 6,544	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed Problem with sub with *no contract signed* Why does anyone do anything without a contract? It's a recipe for disaster. __________________ Wallpaper Hanger St. Louis Digital Murals Installation

10-03-2006, 10:21 AM	#3
Peladu View Profile Peladu Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,370) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,370	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed Depends on what is considered a contract. A verbal agreement under a certain price, is still considered a contract. But the, "If you touch it you own it" part doesn't fly with me. He stated that it was an existing pipe, which is a pre-existing problem. Also why would you want a HVAC guy messing with existing gas lines? HVAC maybe at the hot water, furnace hook up's I understand, but not on existing work. I think I would have done exactly what the HVAC guy did...given only the information that you have supplied above.

10-03-2006, 10:23 AM	#4
Teetorbilt View Profile Teetorbilt Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (10,475) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Residential Contractor Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Jensen Beach, FL Posts: 10,475	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed No contract? How can he prove that he ever did ANYTHING for you or for how much? Tell him to take a hike! When he comes back to fight for his money, you'll be sitting in the catbird's seat. You have the money, he wants it. I'd explain to him how you had to hire someone else to complete the job that he started to stay on schedule and negotiate from there. __________________ You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems. Albert Einstein

10-03-2006, 10:37 AM	#5
dayexco View Profile dayexco Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,605) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: entrepreneur of excavating expertise Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,605	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed i agree with peladu, if the gas line was a pre existing condition, he should be compensated for it's repair __________________ someday, i'll be as patient as Nick.

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10-03-2006, 10:44 AM	#6
Double-A View Profile Double-A Moderator Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (4,618) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Moderator Trade: GC - Remodeling Specialists Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 4,618	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed I'd pay you what you agreed to. And I agree with him not looking for and repairing a leak without additional money, if he's qualified to do so. This is a classic change order situation. The old gas line won't hold for a pressure test. Its not your fault and not his. I think you're putting your schedule ahead of his qualifications and his willingness to bail you out of a situation he had no control over. Given your side of things, I don't blame him for taking a walk. You've tossed your relationship with this guy over something beyond his control for the sake of your schedule. This is the type of thing that gives GC's such bad name with their subcontractors. At this point, I'd call him and find out what the extra $300.00 is for and why he feels he's owed it. If its legitimate, I'd pay it. I think you two are not being business-like about this. Time to park the ego and mend some fences for the sake of this job, your lien waiver from him, and future jobs. And Teetor, as long as Kev doesn't have a lien waiver, this sub is in the cat bird's seat. __________________ "My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y. New York Times, July 20, 2006 Last edited by Double-A; 10-03-2006 at 10:46 AM.

10-03-2006, 11:06 AM	#7
copusbuilder View Profile copusbuilder Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,358) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Builder/Remodeler- Master Electrician Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Crockett Texas Posts: 1,358	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed On top of that offering a plumber $500 to fix it so you can stay on schedule. My guess is you expect him to pay for that?? I do not think you are playing fair and I would have walked as well. What good would a contract do in this situation other that sink you? I am sure he would not have agreed to repair any thing he has no control over. Short lived life in contracting with that attitude __________________ www.copusconstruction.com www.etexasrentals.com www.thelakevoice.com AkA Richard Cranium

10-03-2006, 12:28 PM	#8
joasis View Profile joasis Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,057) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hennessey, Oklahoma Posts: 6,057	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed I think you are both wrong...you for not working with the hvac guy a little better, and him for not living up to the original estimate without explanation. No one can tell you how to handle this, but what I would do is either call and find out about the extra charge, or keep quiet and pay it, and move on. I would not use him again, but I would pay the bill as stated since my reputation is worth more then a few hundred dollars. You don't have to use him again, and the way you handled this, if I were him, I wouldn't work for you again. But that is just my opinion. I don't use contracts with my regular subs, but we are a small town, and their word and mine is what we work with...when I use someone I do not know, I do get it in writing. __________________ Ladwig Construction Hennessey, Oklahoma 405 853 1563 Ladwig Insulation & Construction Services Serving Oklahoma Statewide

10-03-2006, 12:38 PM	#9
mdshunk View Profile mdshunk DGR,IABD Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (9,680) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity DGR,IABD Trade: Electrical; Commercial and Residential Service Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Central PA Posts: 9,680	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed If I owned everything I touched, I'd be poor or there'd be a long string of dead GC's. It is very common for subs to uncover existing problems. It's never reasonable to expect them to pay for them. This is a change order thing. Insisting that the gasman take care of it right away might have happened if you also didn't expect him to finance that repair also. "I'll get to it when I can" would be my response too in an effort to give myself a little cooling off time to regroup my thoughts. The extra 300 bucks was probably the HVAC man's way of getting paid for his aggrivation from you, as he knows full well that you won't call him back anymore and he probably doesn't want to work for you anymore. I might have been inclined to do the same thing, depending on my mood when I fired off the bill.

10-03-2006, 04:17 PM	#10
reveivl View Profile reveivl Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,716) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Renovations Join Date: May 2005 Location: West Coast Canada Posts: 1,716	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed I do remodeling/renos for a living and it had better not be "You touch it you own it". How could it be? Guy wants a different colour toilet and I quote him on the change out and then find the plumbing, sub-floor and framing are all fubar, I'm supposed to pay for the repairs because I touched it? Get real. __________________ From where does knowledge come? If you need to know what is in a box, you could ask someone (not reliable), you could pray, (not useful), you can consult with the scripture (not helpful) or you could open the box (science)

10-03-2006, 06:46 PM	#11
smellslike$tome View Profile smellslike$tome Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (533) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: plumbing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 533	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed Why certainly Mr. Kevjob sir! I'll be more than happy, at no additional charge, to repair or better yet replace that 40 year old run of gas piping. I mean, after all I did run a branch from it to supply this new furnace I just installed. Tell you what, while I'm at it why don't I just replace all the gas piping in the house (there could be other leaks you know) since it's all connected to this new HVAC equipment I just installed. Of course it won't do at all to stop there so I'll just go ahead and put in a new water heater, range, and any other gas appliances I might find. Are you out of your mind? I don't think there is anyway you can convince me that you didn't know better than to try and pull this off on him. Looks like to me that you tried to bully him into doing it either because you're a cheap s.o.b. or because you felt the pressure of your deadline. P.S. guys like you are the reason I don't do anything without a written contract. In fact when a GC is involved in a remodel situation (I don't even do new work anymore) I require both the GC and the HO to sign the contract. The HO understands that in the event the GC doesn't pay for ANY REASON that they are responsible for any unpaid balance. I have no idea how that would stand up in court but after being burned by more than one "GC" it at least makes me feel better. Last edited by smellslike$tome; 10-03-2006 at 06:52 PM.

10-03-2006, 08:03 PM	#13
kevjob View Profile kevjob Remodeling GC Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,033) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Remodeling GC Trade: Remodeling General Contractor Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,033	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed thnaks anyway __________________ Kevin Basement Finishing Highlands Ranch Colorado Littleton Colorado, Basement Remodeling Kitchen Remodeling Denver

10-03-2006, 08:32 PM	#19
go dart View Profile go dart Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (660) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: remodeling/specializing in kitchen & baths Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: midwest Posts: 660	Re: Problem With Sub With No Contract Signed i've been thru many gas lines that wouldn't pass a pressure test. our plumber is in house so this always ends up an extra to the homeowner.

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