How much detail in invoices? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Cashking63 · 02-18-2008, 07:09 PM

How much detail do you guys do in invoicing? Hourly rate? How many hours?
and for materials do you itemize or just list them all together with a price?

kevjob · 02-18-2008, 07:11 PM

no itemizing ever, one line amount at the bottom.

KillerToiletSpider · 02-18-2008, 07:18 PM

Depends on who it is receiving the invoice, if it is for a GC that we did an emergency fix for, it has a single line with a total price. Occasionally we will do a service call in a building for the building engineer if we are working in the building anyway, and the homeowner has to pay the bill, those we will break down a material list, with a cost for each item, and a total for labor @$140.00 dollars an hour.

Grumpy · 02-18-2008, 07:28 PM

When you buy a roof from me you are getting a proposal that could easily be 15 paragraphs explaining in great detail what we plan to do. It explains our payment terms. it gives the customer optional upgrades.

When I bill you you get an invoice that reflects that proposal. The detail is in the proposal. For example it would say...

new Shingle Roof INstalled: ,,,,$5,500
Optional shingle Upgrade, Color:.... $285

Payments recieved:.....-$1500

Ammount Due

If you look at my proposal it would say:

New Shingle Roof
insert 15 paragraphs here
Price: $5,500

Optional Shingle Upgrade for an additional $285

So the invoice summarizes and reflects the proposal. There is very little detail.

Grumpy · 02-18-2008, 07:31 PM

If it is a T&M job there is a little bit more detail.

2 men 8 hours each at $75 per man per hour. Total 18 hours.... $1,200
Materials used, 2 bundles of Shingles, 3 tubes of Caulk, Ice Shield, nails etc... $242

I've been asked before to make my materials balance out, but I only do this upon request. I usually just add it all up roughly and add an arbitrary markup and total out the material in one line.

Cashking63 · 02-18-2008, 07:31 PM

heres my problem, i just finished up a job. customer is happy and paid bill. Now she calls me and wants a detailed Itemized bill. I think her interior decorater, whom i did not get along with real well is trying something. I generally do not care however 99% of my business is from referals, so I want her to be happy.

Cashking63 · 02-18-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

If it is a T&M job there is a little bit more detail.

2 men 8 hours each at $75 per man per hour. Total 18 hours.... $1,200
Materials used, 2 bundles of Shingles, 3 tubes of Caulk, Ice Shield, nails etc... $242

I've been asked before to make my materials balance out, but I only do this upon request. I usually just add it all up roughly and add an arbitrary markup and total out the material in one line.

Thats what I did, it was a T&M job.

Had top line listed all the labor, scrape, paint... etc basically all activities and a price
next line listed all materials with a combined price
last line had the total.

kevjob · 02-18-2008, 07:36 PM

My comment is "the only person to see that info is my tax guy!"

Grumpy · 02-18-2008, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevjob

My comment is "the only person to see that info is my tax guy!"

Not if the job is T&M, the customer is buying T & M. As a customer if we had a T&M job I wouldn't pay you for the M until you told me what M I was buying.

Brock · 02-18-2008, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cashking63

heres my problem, i just finished up a job. customer is happy and paid bill. Now she calls me and wants a detailed Itemized bill. I think her interior decorater, whom i did not get along with real well is trying something. I generally do not care however 99% of my business is from referals, so I want her to be happy.

Oh Oh! You charged way too much according to the interior decorator. Her guy would have done a much better job and only charged half as much. You have just been caught!

Cashking63 · 02-18-2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

Oh Oh! You charged way too much according to the interior decorator. Her guy would have done a much better job and only charged half as much. You have just been caught!

decorator was a "he" and I did charge more than his guy. I did not get "caught " doing anything. i am not trying to hide anything, just trying to find a diplomatic way into making her happy, and avoid any problems with said decorator

Tom F. · 02-18-2008, 08:21 PM

If the customer was happy when you left, why not call and ask if there is now a problem? Because you do not generally provide that level of detail on your final invoices. Express genuine concern with her satisfaction, and maybe you can find out what the real problem is. No point guessing if you are in good standing with the customer. Maybe its her tax person asking, or the contractor boyfriend?

**AtlanticWBConst** · 02-18-2008, 08:49 PM

FWIW: I don't know how legal this is, but it's been in our contracts for a while (just in case):

[5] MATERIALS: Unless supplied and delivered directly onto the worksite by the client, all materials, construction components, and additional services of any kind used on the contracted job, will be subject to the industry standard 20 percent service fee. In the event that a request is made by the client for an extensively detailed and itemized charge list of materials and components used on the said project; an additional fee will be assessed to cover expenses incurred for the time required to compile said list(s). This amount will be based on the rate of $150.00 per hour - upon the afore mentioned request. This provision is not available on any hired work that is not agreed upon in advance, as a Time and Materials based contract.
XXXXX Construction Inc. holds the right to refuse provision of the afore mentioned request for itemizations at any time, for any contracted project, unless it has been stipulated to, in a written document, as terms for payment.

Blah, blah, blah......

Cashking63 · 02-18-2008, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlanticWBConst

FWIW: I don't know how legal this is, but it's been in our contracts for a while (just in case):

[5] MATERIALS: Unless supplied and delivered directly onto the worksite by the client, all materials, construction components, and additional services of any kind used on the contracted job, will be subject to the industry standard 20 percent service fee. In the event that a request is made by the client for an extensively detailed and itemized charge list of materials and components used on the said project; an additional fee will be assessed to cover expenses incurred for the time required to compile said list(s). This amount will be based on the rate of $150.00 per hour - upon the afore mentioned request. This provision is not available on any hired work that is not agreed upon in advance, as a Time and Materials based contract.
XXXXX Construction Inc. holds the right to refuse provision of the afore mentioned request for itemizations at any time, for any contracted project, unless it has been stipulated to, in a written document, as terms for payment.

Blah, blah, blah......

thanks for that. i may run something like this by my attorney, see if I can add it.

minus the Blah, blah, blah of course

JumboJack · 02-18-2008, 10:57 PM

I have been having people asking for itemized estimates a lot lately.To be honest I have been reluctant to tell them no but I know it is better for me to give one price as opposed to listing everything individualy...

Grumpy · 02-18-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumboJack

I have been having people asking for itemized estimates a lot lately.To be honest I have been reluctant to tell them no but I know it is better for me to give one price as opposed to listing everything individualy...

I wont line item the price, but I will line item the scope of work. This is the minimum scope of work, here is the price for the minimum and here are a few optional upgrades.

Floordude · 02-19-2008, 10:51 AM

If they ask for an itemized proposal, I ask if they are planning to do portions of the work themselves and leave it in their court. If they say yes, I have an answer, if they say no, Then I say then there is no need it itemize out my proposal, then.

All extras and change orders above and beyond the proposal, are itemized out on the final invoice. All time and materials are line item priced.

BigLou · 02-19-2008, 10:58 AM

One line on our invoices, which references the draw schedule in the contract.

on the other hand, our proposal/quote has a very detailed itemized listing of everything that we will be doing. I've had the occaisonal request for an itemized listing, ignored the request.

If someday, I have someone that persists in wanting an itemized listing, I will tell than that my software is not set up to provide that detail, and it will be a manual process for which I will have to charge.

**Double-A** · 02-19-2008, 11:45 AM

This has been discussed many times in the past, you might want to search on it and see what folks have said in the past.

This is one of my older posts dealing with itemized invoices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-A

We've all run into this type of client before. I explain that we're not in the business of creating a grocery list of materials and that time is money.

Any cyphering we do on a project is proprietary information and not subject to disclosure outside of the company. The simple reason being is that this is a business of managing costs and mitigating risks, plain and simple. How we do that is what gives us our competitive edge and we're not obliged to disclose that anymore than Wal-Mart or Ford is.

The client is not purchasing materials from you, nor are they purchasing labor. They are purchasing a customized and built-in-place item, the deck.

Our company policy is not to argue with the client ever, and to accommodate them as much as possible, without compromising our competitive edge. When those two goals are out of sync with each other, we choose to walk away.

We call this firing a client.

Send him a $25 gift card to a nice local business or restaurant and wish him well.

From another post.

Quote:

I think charging time and material is a poor way to run a business. Every single point on an invoice is an invitation to discuss how money could have been saved on the job. For anyone doing service work, its a sure way to a headache.

When was the last time you bought anything by time and material? Time yes, cell phone usage, etc, but time and material? My guess is "not lately".

How much would you pay for a seamstress to make clothes for your children per hour? How much for material? Thread, needles, patterns?

The cost of doing business is a complicated thing, you have to know your burdened labor rate to even start to calculate what you should charge. Ellen Rohr wrote a couple of great books, "How Much Should I Charge?" and "Where Did the Money Go?"

Look her up in Google to get the low down. She's a smart cookie that has learned the hard way and is more than willing to share her extensive knowledge.

When I had someone a bill, its just that, a bill, not a topic of discussion.

As for breaking it down now, don't do it. Just explain that is not the way you conduct business. If she has any questions, you'll be happy to answer them. If not, would she like to pay by check or credit card?

Cashking63 · 02-19-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-A

This has been discussed many times in the past, you might want to search on it and see what folks have said in the past.

This is one of my older posts dealing with itemized invoices.

From another post.

As for breaking it down now, don't do it. Just explain that is not the way you conduct business. If she has any questions, you'll be happy to answer them. If not, would she like to pay by check or credit card?

Thats the beautiful part, she has already paid, check cleared the bank last week. i just want her to remain happy, and make sure the Id is not messing around