HO Cancels Check For Final Payment

oldfrt · 01-21-2009, 07:36 PM

Hey Guys,
Been a while since I've been here but need opinions on a couple things.
First,
I presented the HO an itemized bill for final payment on a project.
It included ; Total payments received,and a Balance due.
He looks at the bill,writes me a check for the balance and I leave.
A half hour later he calls me saying ,we have to talk!!!.Since he called on my cell while I was on the road I waited for a spot to pull over and check for a message.
Ten minutes later he calls again saying he is going to cancel payment on the check and spews out some incoherent reasoning for his decision.
Can he legally get away with this?

Second,
Since the HO decides he has paid too much for the work completed(after he paid the total), I wanted opinions about this project being in the Ballpark price wise?
It's a 400 sq/ft addition.We did the framing,roofing,siding,interior trim.We used TJI joists and it's 2x6 exterior walls.Material costs were about $20,000,my cost was $42,000 with all the material from foundation up,less the finish floors,sheet rock and electrical and plumbing.
We had to tie this into his existing log cabin ranch and cut a 6' opening into the house.Also had to tie into the existing roof and continue the porch roof(separate roof line) over to meet the new roof.

Total job costs came to $105.00 sq/ft and this includes a T&G Red Cedar Vaulted ceiling.
I'll try and post a couple of pics ;

OCRS · 01-21-2009, 07:43 PM

Contract?

nlgutters · 01-21-2009, 07:57 PM

I think we are missing something here.
What were the excuses or reasons he spurted out?

ALSO WHO CARES IF YOU ARE IN THE BALLPARK HE ACCEPTED YOUR PRICE AND TOLD YOU TO DO THE JOB.

oldfrt · 01-21-2009, 08:04 PM

The contract was verbal,as we had just finished building a 3-bay garage for him and he was up in the air about how he wanted to design the addition.
Since we had no problem with him on the garage,all extra's were compensated for after a verbal agreement on any changes,we felt comfortable enough to continue to work for him with a verbal contract.
I gave him a ball park figure of $40,000 for the addition,+/- the cost on number and brand of windows.
After that discussion,he added the cedar ceiling and misc. repairs to the exisiting house.

My point is since he saw the final price,and wrote me a check for that amount,doesn't this show an acceptance of the costs for work done?

rbsremodeling · 01-21-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldfrt

The contract was verbal,as we had just finished building a 3-bay garage for him and he was up in the air about how he wanted to design the addition.
Since we had no problem with him on the garage,all extra's were compensated for after a verbal agreement on any changes,we felt comfortable enough to continue to work for him with a verbal contract.
I gave him a ball park figure of $40,000 for the addition,+/- the cost on number and brand of windows.
After that discussion,he added the cedar ceiling and misc. repairs to the exisiting house.

My point is since he saw the final price,and wrote me a check for that amount,doesn't this show an acceptance of the costs for work done?

Yes. But it will cost you 40K to prove it in court

There are a few good post around here about filing liens and other means of collecting you money. By a 6 pack of beer and kick back and read some of them lost of good info

oldfrt · 01-21-2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nlgutters

I think we are missing something here.
What were the excuses or reasons he spurted out?

ALSO WHO CARES IF YOU ARE IN THE BALLPARK HE ACCEPTED YOUR PRICE AND TOLD YOU TO DO THE JOB.

His excuses ranged from it costing more than a 3-bay garage we just built for him (1500sq/ft ,2deep car bays and a mobile home bay,with a second floor loft.
We didn't work on his schedule.
The total finished addition,with sheetrock elec,foundation etc was more than he wanted to spend.
And his wife is unhappy with the costs

CA Contractor · 01-21-2009, 08:18 PM

Not sure about Connecticut but in CA you'd have a hard time collecting without a contract - ALWAYS HAVE EVERYTHING IN WRITING, including additions/changes & make sure it's signed & dated - not only protects you but the homeowner as well. Sorry but sounds like he knew what he was doing, better check w/an attorney.

oldfrt · 01-21-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbsremodeling

Yes. But it will cost you 40K to prove it in court

There are a few good post around here about filing liens and other means of collecting you money. By a 6 pack of beer and kick back and read some of them lost of good info

Next time I pay for a new car with a check,I'll rush over to the bank and put a stop payment on the check after I drive it off the lot.
Legally,it seems like a pretty quick judgement,but I don't want to take it there.
I've tried to explain all my costs to the HO and have an open discussion going with him.I just hope he sees that he agreed to the price and his own lack of diligence about what he was spending got him to this final pissy fit.

Bill Z · 01-21-2009, 08:20 PM

Looks like a fantastic addition, and the price is very much in line with a lot of the rooms our company has built. Everyone has a little buyer's remorse, and he just didn't have enough information about what he is paying for.. the buyer's remorse kicked in after you left with his check.

Don't jump to conclusions about what he can do and can't do legally. After all, he told you he wants to talk. That sounds like an invitation for you to do some selling after the fact. He just wants to understand what he is paying for and justify the cost.

Sit down with the gentleman and lay your cards on the table. Your rates are fair, you protected him through the job with insurance, you used your expertise to assure quality and prompt completion of the work. He didn't say he would not pay you, he said he wanted to talk.

Just do a little selling. Good Luck!

OCRS · 01-21-2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldfrt

His excuses ranged from it costing more than a 3-bay garage we just built for him (1500sq/ft ,2deep car bays and a mobile home bay,with a second floor loft.
We didn't work on his schedule.
The total finished addition,with sheetrock elec,foundation etc was more than he wanted to spend.
And his wife is unhappy with the costs

And now he wants you to pay for it. Do like RBS suggested and read about threatening court proceedings.

nlgutters · 01-21-2009, 08:23 PM

You said you told him 40k +/- and he agreed to do the job.
Now he and his wife say it's too much?

Greg Di · 01-21-2009, 08:25 PM

Not for anything, but how the f**k is anyone doing a $40,000 job without a written contract? Seriously. This is precisely the reason why people look to take advantage of contractors--because they can.

You are doing no one, including the client, any favors by not putting things in writing.

Reading these types of posts disgusts me.

I hope you get your money, but man-o-man.

**Ed the Roofer** · 01-21-2009, 08:25 PM

I think, if I remember correctly, that you have mentioned in the past, or actually even bragged about how and why you didn't use or need written contracts.

If I am wrong about that being you, please excuse me and my memory.

But, this is a prime example of nothing to show in writing that was agreed to.

Do you have ANYTHING AT ALL in writing that is signed about changes in the scope?

It would "SEEM", since he wrote you the check, that the amount was agreed to and acceptable to him, but now you have to spend money to prove that point.

Ed

nlgutters · 01-21-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldfrt

Next time I pay for a new car with a check,I'll rush over to the bank and put a stop payment on the check after I drive it off the lot.
Legally,it seems like a pretty quick judgement,but I don't want to take it there.
I've tried to explain all my costs to the HO and have an open discussion going with him.I just hope he sees that he agreed to the price and his own lack of diligence about what he was spending got him to this final pissy fit.

I don't think you realize the diffrence here. When you buy a car they have the price on a CONTRACT which you sign first before they get a check from you.

oldfrt · 01-21-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Z

Looks like a fantastic addition, and the price is very much in line with a lot of the rooms our company has built. Everyone has a little buyer's remorse, and he just didn't have enough information about what he is paying for.. the buyer's remorse kicked in after you left with his check.

Don't jump to conclusions about what he can do and can't do legally. After all, he told you he wants to talk. That sounds like an invitation for you to do some selling after the fact. He just wants to understand what he is paying for and justify the cost.

Sit down with the gentleman and lay your cards on the table. Your rates are fair, you protected him through the job with insurance, you used your expertise to assure quality and prompt completion of the work. He didn't say he would not pay you, he said he wanted to talk.

Just do a little selling. Good Luck!

Yea,
I did the selling thing with him after his second call and he seemed to settle down a bit.I left it with a promise to check my material and labor costs again.He's trying to compare his extra large garage to a small finished room and doesn't see the differences.

SLSTech · 01-21-2009, 08:35 PM

I would make a copy of the check & then deposit the check - you have just been forewarned that it might not clear. If it doesn't clear & was truly canceled, then you need to figure out your options & talk to a lawyer. You will end up filling a lien & if the amount is small enough you will probably end up going through small claims court. While a written contract is the best thing to have, a verbal contract is still valid.

Bill Z · 01-21-2009, 08:35 PM

At least he will have a little time to grow accustomed to the price while you are "checking" your costs. You may want to return with some good documentation or he'll be expecting a cut in the price.

He sounds emotional and when his logical side wakes up, he'll realize his mistake, and yours, was not getting everything in writing up front. He's already had the meal, too late to go back. Attorneys will cost you both more than it's worth, in dollars, headaches and lost time.

oldfrt · 01-21-2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

I think, if I remember correctly, that you have mentioned in the past, or actually even bragged about how and why you didn't use or need written contracts.

If I am wrong about that being you, please excuse me and my memory.

But, this is a prime example of nothing to show in writing that was agreed to.

Do you have ANYTHING AT ALL in writing that is signed about changes in the scope?

It would "SEEM", since he wrote you the check, that the amount was agreed to and acceptable to him, but now you have to spend money to prove that point.

Ed

Ed,
I do use written contracts,and I did on his first project,but his indecision on how he wanted to complete the addition kept me from getting it in writing,
He was in a hurry for us to get started and I had to draw up plans three times before we had the final design,thus the +/- on the verbal.
I'll admit I let this one slip by me by not getting it in writing,but three weeks before we finished .I gave him a progress report on where we stood financially,and what the final cost should be.
He accepted it and the final costs were actually lower than my report.

**Ed the Roofer** · 01-21-2009, 08:38 PM

You need to read that one thread that Dirt Diggler started.

Even something written a a napkin that you blew your nose in would be better than what you do now.

How in the Heck can ANYONE be do fricking naive or actually just Plain Old Dumb?

I wouldn't do a $ 400.00 dollar job without SOMETHING in writing, let alone a $ 40,000.00 job.

I am not trying to roast your azz, but come on, WTF were you thinking?

If you believe that nothing bad will ever happen to you financially, and there will NEVER be any misunderstandings, why don't you just go to the casino instead?

That is some nice and valuable work you did and I hope you get paid every penny you have coming, but please finally learn something from this experience.

Are you trying to skate under the radar by not having any paper trails?

Ed

oldfrt · 01-21-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLSTech

I would make a copy of the check & then deposit the check - you have just been forewarned that it might not clear. If it doesn't clear & was truly canceled, then you need to figure out your options & talk to a lawyer. You will end up filling a lien & if the amount is small enough you will probably end up going through small claims court. While a written contract is the best thing to have, a verbal contract is still valid.

I deposited the check right after he paid me and before I got his calls. I have been working out of town and couldn't get to a bank for about a week.

01-21-2009, 07:36 PM	#1
oldfrt View Profile oldfrt Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,039) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodeling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northwest Connecticut Posts: 2,039	HO Cancels Check For Final Payment Hey Guys, Been a while since I've been here but need opinions on a couple things. First, I presented the HO an itemized bill for final payment on a project. It included ; Total payments received,and a Balance due. He looks at the bill,writes me a check for the balance and I leave. A half hour later he calls me saying ,we have to talk!!!.Since he called on my cell while I was on the road I waited for a spot to pull over and check for a message. Ten minutes later he calls again saying he is going to cancel payment on the check and spews out some incoherent reasoning for his decision. Can he legally get away with this? Second, Since the HO decides he has paid too much for the work completed(after he paid the total), I wanted opinions about this project being in the Ballpark price wise? It's a 400 sq/ft addition.We did the framing,roofing,siding,interior trim.We used TJI joists and it's 2x6 exterior walls.Material costs were about $20,000,my cost was $42,000 with all the material from foundation up,less the finish floors,sheet rock and electrical and plumbing. We had to tie this into his existing log cabin ranch and cut a 6' opening into the house.Also had to tie into the existing roof and continue the porch roof(separate roof line) over to meet the new roof. Total job costs came to $105.00 sq/ft and this includes a T&G Red Cedar Vaulted ceiling. I'll try and post a couple of pics ; Attached Thumbnails __________________ https://www.facebook.com/pages/John-...94183374011504

01-21-2009, 07:43 PM	#2
OCRS View Profile OCRS Steve Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (844) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Steve Trade: Residential Renovations Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sarsfield, Ontario, Canada Posts: 844	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment Contract?

01-21-2009, 07:57 PM	#3
nlgutters View Profile nlgutters Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (957) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: seamless gutters Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: new hampshire Posts: 957	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment I think we are missing something here. What were the excuses or reasons he spurted out? ALSO WHO CARES IF YOU ARE IN THE BALLPARK HE ACCEPTED YOUR PRICE AND TOLD YOU TO DO THE JOB. __________________ www.nlseamlessgutters.com

01-21-2009, 08:04 PM	#4
oldfrt View Profile oldfrt Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,039) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodeling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northwest Connecticut Posts: 2,039	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment The contract was verbal,as we had just finished building a 3-bay garage for him and he was up in the air about how he wanted to design the addition. Since we had no problem with him on the garage,all extra's were compensated for after a verbal agreement on any changes,we felt comfortable enough to continue to work for him with a verbal contract. I gave him a ball park figure of $40,000 for the addition,+/- the cost on number and brand of windows. After that discussion,he added the cedar ceiling and misc. repairs to the exisiting house. My point is since he saw the final price,and wrote me a check for that amount,doesn't this show an acceptance of the costs for work done? __________________ https://www.facebook.com/pages/John-...94183374011504

01-21-2009, 08:18 PM	#7
CA Contractor View Profile CA Contractor Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (56) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: general contractor Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: East Bay, CA Posts: 56	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment Not sure about Connecticut but in CA you'd have a hard time collecting without a contract - ALWAYS HAVE EVERYTHING IN WRITING, including additions/changes & make sure it's signed & dated - not only protects you but the homeowner as well. Sorry but sounds like he knew what he was doing, better check w/an attorney.

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01-21-2009, 08:20 PM	#9
Bill Z View Profile Bill Z Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (477) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: sun rooms and room additions Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 477	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment Looks like a fantastic addition, and the price is very much in line with a lot of the rooms our company has built. Everyone has a little buyer's remorse, and he just didn't have enough information about what he is paying for.. the buyer's remorse kicked in after you left with his check. Don't jump to conclusions about what he can do and can't do legally. After all, he told you he wants to talk. That sounds like an invitation for you to do some selling after the fact. He just wants to understand what he is paying for and justify the cost. Sit down with the gentleman and lay your cards on the table. Your rates are fair, you protected him through the job with insurance, you used your expertise to assure quality and prompt completion of the work. He didn't say he would not pay you, he said he wanted to talk. Just do a little selling. Good Luck!

01-21-2009, 08:23 PM	#11
nlgutters View Profile nlgutters Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (957) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: seamless gutters Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: new hampshire Posts: 957	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment You said you told him 40k +/- and he agreed to do the job. Now he and his wife say it's too much? __________________ www.nlseamlessgutters.com

01-21-2009, 08:25 PM	#12
Greg Di View Profile Greg Di The Deck Guy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,925) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity The Deck Guy Trade: Outdoor Design & Construction Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bergen County, NJ Posts: 2,925	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment Not for anything, but how the fk is anyone doing a $40,000 job without a written contract? Seriously. This is precisely the reason why people look to take advantage of contractors--because they can. You are doing no one, including the client, any favors by not putting things in writing. Reading these types of posts disgusts me. I hope you get your money, but man-o-man. __________________ Your source for: BergenDECKS.com ::: Decks • Porches • Railings • Pergolas in Bergen County New Jersey Remodeling and Home Improvements in Bergen County \| EPA Approved Lead-Safe Contractor Techno Metal Post** ::: Residential, Commercial and Industrial Helical foundation piles Follow us on: Facebook \| Twitter \| YouTube

01-21-2009, 08:25 PM	#13
Ed the Roofer View Profile Ed the Roofer Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (7,135) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Roofing Contractor Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NW Suburbs of Chicago Posts: 7,135	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment I think, if I remember correctly, that you have mentioned in the past, or actually even bragged about how and why you didn't use or need written contracts. If I am wrong about that being you, please excuse me and my memory. But, this is a prime example of nothing to show in writing that was agreed to. Do you have ANYTHING AT ALL in writing that is signed about changes in the scope? It would "SEEM", since he wrote you the check, that the amount was agreed to and acceptable to him, but now you have to spend money to prove that point. Ed __________________ Please Stay Tuned For A Very Important Message From Our Sponsor http://www.rightwayroofingcompany.com/ www.rightwayroofingcompany.com Roof Estimates, Roof Repairs, Roofers, Roof Leak Help, Elgin, Carpentersville, East Dundee, West Dundee, Sleepy Hollow, Algonquin, South Elgin, Huntley, Lake In The Hills, Illinois

01-21-2009, 08:35 PM	#16
SLSTech View Profile SLSTech Sean Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (4,513) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Sean Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Cullman, AL Posts: 4,513	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment I would make a copy of the check & then deposit the check - you have just been forewarned that it might not clear. If it doesn't clear & was truly canceled, then you need to figure out your options & talk to a lawyer. You will end up filling a lien & if the amount is small enough you will probably end up going through small claims court. While a written contract is the best thing to have, a verbal contract is still valid. __________________ Alabama Full Service Remodeling, Renovation, and Preservation by SLS Construction Certified Energy Efficiency Audits, Ratings, Modeling, Verifications, & Consulting Residential, Commercial, & Industrial Infrared Thermography Scans

01-21-2009, 08:38 PM	#19
Ed the Roofer View Profile Ed the Roofer Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (7,135) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Roofing Contractor Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NW Suburbs of Chicago Posts: 7,135	Re: HO Cancels Check For Final Payment You need to read that one thread that Dirt Diggler started. Even something written a a napkin that you blew your nose in would be better than what you do now. How in the Heck can ANYONE be do fricking naive or actually just Plain Old Dumb? I wouldn't do a $ 400.00 dollar job without SOMETHING in writing, let alone a $ 40,000.00 job. I am not trying to roast your azz, but come on, WTF were you thinking? If you believe that nothing bad will ever happen to you financially, and there will NEVER be any misunderstandings, why don't you just go to the casino instead? That is some nice and valuable work you did and I hope you get paid every penny you have coming, but please finally learn something from this experience. Are you trying to skate under the radar by not having any paper trails? Ed __________________ Please Stay Tuned For A Very Important Message From Our Sponsor http://www.rightwayroofingcompany.com/ www.rightwayroofingcompany.com Roof Estimates, Roof Repairs, Roofers, Roof Leak Help, Elgin, Carpentersville, East Dundee, West Dundee, Sleepy Hollow, Algonquin, South Elgin, Huntley, Lake In The Hills, Illinois

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