Going Union Vs. Staying Non Union

DT Tilemaster

So, I'm new to this site but from what I've read, it will be a great source of information. I'll just get right to the point...

I'm a tile contractor in CA and I'm looking to take the next step in building my buisness. This requires working with bigger generals and construction companies to get bigger jobs for more money. The problem is that most of these big companies only hire union subs.

Can anyone tell me some pros and cons on going Union??

I really don't know much about it so any thoughts would be appreciated!

Ed the Roofer

There was recently a very long thread discussing the pros and cons of union vs non-union.

Use the search option and see if that answers your questions first and if not, then continue on in this thread.

Ed

DT Tilemaster

I did read through that thread and while there was a TON of useful information, I still didn't quite get a feel for whether being part of a Union is worthwhile. I did realize the dangers of working on a "Union" job while not being union which was a real eye-opener.

Also, is there any advantage to going "part union?"

Ed the Roofer

"Part-Union" would be classified as having an alter-ego company, also known as being "double-breasted".

The "Non-Union" entity would be under the same contractual stipulations per the union agreement as the signatory company.

Ed

mdshunk

Yeah, everyone does that. After all, that's the benefit to being double-breasted.

Ed the Roofer

Is that tongue in cheek, MD?

I know several contractors in the Chicago market who got caught and had to go out of business completely on both sides to pay the debt they were found legally responsible for.

There are ways to do it, but ABC would be a good place to start getting an education on the methods required.

Ed

mdshunk

I know nothing. Nothing.

DT Tilemaster

So if it were you Ed, would you make the leap to Union??

HUDSONVALLEYEXT

f*** the union

They would suck every dime out of you...

At least thats how it is here in New York

Ed the Roofer

I stopped doing union commercial work in my market area because of all of the head-aches associated with dealing with the BA and the Union president.

Then, when you are strapped for cash flow waiting your 30 day after end of month payouts, you still owe all of the fringe and benefits funds, no excuses.

I did new construction very very successfuly for years all over the entire midwest, with a lot of travelling required, but the local union did not get too excited about it until they realized that all of these "small" restaurant roof jobs and gas stations and mini-marts we were doing were starting to add up to quite a bit of time. Time that they wanted to be under the union scope of jurisdiction for the membership to take advantage of.

I went to battle with the NLRB regarding their supposed "Informational" pickets and won the battle. But going to battle every time you get a new construction job where there is other trades unions represented is not worth the ongoing hassle.

I do miss the type of work I did though. And, it was quite profitable for me with or without me working on the jobs, as long as I had my own trained employees on site. Once I had to start taking guys out of the hall, their training consisted of a 4 hour seminar about all single ply membranes and only the very rare member sent out was worth a darn to me with the type of welding skills he had learned.

Ed

tony33

I thought we had to be Union as well , you might think these guys only do business with Union Subs but you would be surpized that they use alot of diff. trades that don't require a Union. Talk to these guys about how much money thay can save and that you can complete the job as noted. Trust me I know.

AintNoFun

we too are at a cross roads in our business about going union. we doing 90% public/municipal work so union rates are only a few more dollars an hour than prevailing rate, but i really dont want to get involved with them. they would give all my guys and myself Books which is a good benefit, but idk.... Our biggest problem here is that unions are so strong the GC's dont want to use non unions subs so its limiting us on A LOT of jobs! plus a few jobs we have been on were PLA jobs where we had to get guys from the hall it was pretty much throwing all the money out the window i paid those guys..i have heard time and time again the only way to really grow in the market I am in is to go union...

Woz the Painter

All that i can say is if bid on and get on a union based job and you are found out to be non union and the job gets picketed, you most likely will be thrown of the job and good luck collecting for the work you have completed! If it's a gov. job you will be responsible for paying your workers the prevaling wage and the benefits.

DT Tilemaster

From the sound of this thread....Union doesn't seem to be the answer, at least not at this point. I'm just going to wait it out and see if the Union starts to weaken as it seems to be doing in my area (Northern CA). I've worked hard to build my own company and I don't feel like being in the grips of someone else.

Thanks for all the input!

Magnettica

I just started working for an open shop that employs mostly union guys but there's a few non-union too. I am currently non-union but my boss is sort of an old friend so he's paying me a union wage which is $6.00 more per hour than I was making with the last contractor. Now he's trying to get me into local 164 and there are 35 openings for a B level journeyman and it looks like I'll be getting in.

You know what? I'm going union because I'm sick of being underpaid and even less appreciated working for a non-union contractor. The bottom line is the money and the benefits are great. A non-union guy can't compete with that. And if they can they're screwing you some other way (like docking your pay $100.00 for cutting 3/0 copper 3' too short).

Hey Noe... screw you!

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Chris Johnson

I'm in Nor Cal and we are just about to start a large job that requires us to pay Prevailing Wage, it was a requirement since we are non union and it was a HUD project. It was quite simple to do, my crews are making $ 49.00+/hr. incl. fringe and benefits, since we don't offer fringe and benefits we just pay them for it (about $ 17.00/hr.)

I had each one sign and acknowledge that this was their pay rate for this job based on Davis-Bacon schedules and it applied to this project only, once this job is finished it's back to regular pay. Some may stay, others will probably go and find more jobs like this, the choice is theirs.

The union has not been an issue so far, they know we are there and are paying good wages, I doubt we will have any issues.

Have any of you had issues in cases like this?

Chris

DT Tilemaster

Yeah, we are currently working on a Prevailing Wage job right now which is not a problem. The paper work is scary at first but once you get the hang of it, it's a breeze. Ideally we would love to stay private but take prevailing wage jobs when we can find them. Finding them is the hard part though. I'd say 90% of the prevailing wage jobs we come across require you to be union.

We've also heard that being non-union and working on a mostly union job can be a miserable experience b/c the union guys will sabotage your work, slash tires, etc. We haven't experienced that yet however, not looking forward to it should it happen.

What kind of luck have you had finding prevailing wage jobs that aren't union in the Bay Area?

Mater

Those who have been in their profession for many years, and aren't being paid what they think, or are worth, and aren't owners of their own business, USUALLY like the union, as the wages are generally higher. Business owners USUALLY don't like the union as they are forced to pay that jerk 3rd yr. apprentice, the same amount as the 3rd yr. that busts hump all day. That and most small businesses have their "crew" or "crews" they use, and they just git 'er done. I'm not for the union, as the drywall business in the Dayton area has plentiful layoffs. And as someone stated before, and I'm sure many can attest to, the nasty deeds at union/non union jobs. A short story: A well known union company's workers (that will remain anonymous) filled the gang box of a non union company with drywall mud. Multi thousand dollar lasers and other assorted expensive gear was inside. It's usually not nice when they get together. Do not go union.