Free Estimates ... Poor Contractor

dirt diggler

it is not the Commonwealth of Virginia that causes this problem

it IS because a bunch of dumba@@ contractors like ourselves ALLOW this "free estimate" BULLSH*T to be a "customary" practice

do i charge for every estimate? nope. Have I before? Yep. Did it get me the job?? Yep

Have I been turned away because of charging - YEP!!!

and why not --- afterall, 40 idiots behind me are doing it for free


we GIVE AWAY 4-8 hours of time on an estimate (includes meeting time)

think about it ... if you do 5 estimates a week

that's 20-40 hours a week --- JUST for estimates

so that is 20-40 hours/week -- UNPAID ... put that on an annual basis and the number will make you quake



we as Contractors -- yep, including myself here --- we will be poor as dirt --- and at best --- "making a living" (which is Average Joe's way of saying he gets his bills paid)


do you want to get ahead in life??? I'm 26

to me - i might as well be 30

and when you're 30 - might as well be 40 -

at 40 - might as well be lookin at 50 -- and then you're looking at retirement


life IS NOT short

one thing about this business is that there are so many poor people

"paying your bills" is not being wealthy --- that is getting by.

Building a retirement, building a fortune - THAT is living.

oh -- you say money can't buy happiness??? That's just an excuse for being poor



but this free estimate stuff is "customary" because we allow it to be. It is a timeless trend

I say f**k the trend.



Maybe im in the wrong business ....

Cole

Can I Hear Amen?

I am with you and I wish other contractors felt the same way.

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Mud Master

AMEN BROTHER!!

Although like I said in the other thread. I'm all for charging for estimates, and I to have done it on more than a few occasions.

However, I do not charge to my faithful builders. I cannot justify charging a fee to 12 builders/developers who use me exclusivly and ARE my income. Without them I wouldn't have any customers, and it's not cause I can't get them. But i've got into a comfort zone with these guys, and I know it's a bad thing, because something could happen and they could all close down tomorrow, but thats a chance I am willing to take, and do not see happening. 8 outta the 11 years i've been in business being overloaded with work, with checks coming almost weekly..how can I justify that?? I can't.

So if it's someone that is regularly using you as a GC or a sub, no fee.

Someone thats a first timer, window shopping or getting thier 6th estimate...yes.

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CheckmateOhio

I kow what you mean, but it's not gonna change. We are just the laborers out here in this world.

dirt diggler

then f**k this business ...


buncha glorified dumb laborers


we reap what we sow ... cliche ... but too true


(not you checkmate ... you know what i mean)

dirt diggler

AND --- i do not see anything wrong with that practice ... loyal customers/clients ... hey, ive got a soft spot for those kinda people

mdshunk

If you charge for estimates, your closing ratio goes through the roof. Anyone willing to pay for an estimate is a serious buyer.

dirt diggler

exactly

you know - i have no problem even waiving that fee --- or crediting it towards the job

but yeah - talk about seperating the men from the boys ...

you want a qualifier ...


and


DO NOT ASK for money --- TELL THEM "it will cost XX to provide you a consultation and proposal"

don't even say estimate anymore

PressurePros

You go, Dirt, my man. I do 80 estimates per month this time of year so I feel the pain. If I got $5 for each one that alone would pay my electric bill and a night out to have a nice dinner with the wife.

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Pressure Washing PA
Roof Cleaning Services PA

bill r

It's really a 'technical specification'. These are done all the time on T&M in the high-tech world. Today's kitchen remodel is sort of 'high-tech'...

Ed the Roofer

I picked up on this concept from reading old threads both here and another board. Sonny Lycos puts out a document to the prospect entitled the process. If anyone has noticed, from when I first got on this board, I used to use the word, estimate.

That has changed in all of my posts, as I am psychologically committing myself to get away from that obstacle. Currently, as in Sonny's "Process", I speak with my prospects using the phrase "Scope of Work and Cost Analysis" consultation.

I just started trying it out and will work to refine the ideology and the fine points of making it work for me.

It goes something like this; Excuse me Mr. HO, I know that you have been told that the best way to approach making a decision on choosing a contractor to complete your (Roofing) project, is to get 3 bids. Then they tell you to throw out the low guys bid, because he probably doesn't have everything included. Then you are told to disregard the highest bid, because there is no sense in paying an inflated price, is there?

Well, whats wrong with that concept you might ask? I'll tell you sir, according to significant studies done on (Shingle Roofing Jobs), between 90 % to 95 % of them do not qualify for the manufacturers long term warranty.

Soooo, if you do only get 3 bids on the job, probably the only one who even had a shot at providing you with the correct scope of work to meet all of the manufacturers specifications and warranty requirements, was in fact the contractor with the highest "Bid".
How about if I let you in on a pretty fool proof method of finding and selecting the 5 % to 10 % of the contractors who will provide you with the Right Job the 1st time? Does that seem interesting to you???

Well, here is how it works. I too could give you a "Bid" on your "Roofing" project and so can several other guys. You know what will happen? Not one single quote will be providing the exact same specifications, no matter what and no matter how many you get. Everyone views the project differently from their own perspective. Some will bid it real cheap, just because they need the work and will leave out the right specifications. Others, may try to be thorough, but due to a lack of consistent training in the roofing industry, they too will not view the same job correctly.

Here is what I can provide for you. It is called your exclusive non-binding SCA, which stands for "Scope of Work and Cost Analysis". What I can do for you, is not do a quick "estimate", but instead, provide a set of detailed specifications to be outlined as the necessary requirements to provide you with the Right Job done the first time. How does that sound?

Unless you have years of specific experience and training creating detailed (Roofing) specifications, you would be well served by selecting someone who does.

Do you think that this might be a better method of choosing a contractor for improving your home?

Your exclusive SCA agreement will include the following items needing to be implemented for the project to fulfill your desires.

1. ***xx (Here is where you provide a detailed, but not inclusive list of everything that would be required to meet and exceed the manufacturers specifications and building code requirements.)
2. ***xx
3. ***xx
4. ***xx
5. ***xx
6. Etc., etc., etc., ……….

Well, here is where you are going to call me crazy, but for just a small minimum fee of $ ***.00, you can purchase our years of experience in creating a master specification document for your "Scope of Work and Cost Analysis". After you have paid for this detailed service, you are still free to go out and call all of the contractors you feel necessary. Now, at least this time, everyone should be "Bidding" apples to apples, instead of apples to oranges.

At no additional charge, after we provide you with your personal exclusive SCA, we will make ourselves available to you, if you would like and we will sit down together and review all of the "Bids" that you received. We will then provide our budgeted amount for various options for the specifications to add to the benefit of your home as well.
Now, at least, no matter which contractor you choose to fulfill you vision of a "Roofing Project for Your Home", you at least will have the proper specifications being provided to ensure the long lasting value you desire.

When would you like to sit down with us to review your exclusive SCA for your "Roofing" project? Does this Thursday evening work for you, or would you prefer to meet on Saturday at noon?

Blah, Blah, Blah, etc., etc., etc., ……….

This is up to the point I have this concept created.

Dirt! Any Feedback? Does this sound like I am heading in the right direction to achieve getting paid for my time?

My own personal, very biased conclusion of the utilization of this SCA, would be to either set the standard so high that the other "Bidding" contractors would not want to even touch it, (I think that when a HO tells the estimator, that he already knows the specifications, most estimators get turned off and will find another prospect to play with), or that after putting in all this "Paid For Consulting Service", I would be deemed the only contractor that they would even care to do business with for the upgrading of there homes value and protection. My goal is to have them convince themselves, that they would have to be Crazy to even consider entrusting anyone else to provide their "Roofing Project" betterment for their home.

Created by ContractorTalk.com User,

Ed The Roofer, on 3-13-07.

Ed

dirt diggler

honestly - very recently thought of something similar to that ...

i've gotten calls that begin with "ok so what do we do now - do you give me an estimate"


Ed --- THAT kind of call would be a PERFECT chance to try that out on


"Say no ma'am ... we do not provide estimates ... we provide SCAs" and then (BRIEFLY BUT EFFECTIVELY) explain the difference


Ed i like it - i'll try that out myself

and hope you do too and maybe here shortly we'll give feedback




one note Ed ... just in general while I've got your attention ...


you give off a pretty cyncial and vindicitive aura/perspective .... need more bubbliness

as much as I appreciate that cycnicism ... gotta remember


nobody wants to sit and hear about how bad everyone else is (don't know about you --- but SOME of my compeition is VERY VERY GOOD)

I'm better though ... and I tell them (prospects) why


it's all delivery I think ...


I haven't hit my prime ... im far from it ... but this is what ive got so far ...

dougchips

compeition --Dirt, what does that word mean?

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dirt diggler

nothing as far as im concerned ...

Ed the Roofer

Dirt,

I always appreciate constructive critiquing on my methods or phraseology, especially from yourself, who is so passionate about your own ideals and concepts.

Get to know something about me. While I write copy as sharp as a sword, I have a presence and gift to modify my written word to a temperate tone by the aid of my silver tongue.

Nah, Sometimes when I am rambling on, I am probably a blithering idiot. Just one who just so happens to know very much what he is talking about.

My gist is, that once I catch there attention with this premise, even if they do dot take me up on the SCA proposition, they once again have been reinforced with the key concept that is a reality in the industry, that over 90 % to 95 % of all shingle roofs installed, do not meet the criteria set forth to achieve the minimum requirements for the manufacturers long term peace of mind warranty.

I am not attempting to hammer home the aspect that most contractors do not do a good job or that they are dishonest. It is more in tune with the apples to oranges comparisons and how the heck would they determine the difference. I more keenly am trying to get them to see the advantage of a uniquely detailed and comprehensive set of specifications to advance their project to its expected fruition.

They certainly would be foolish to purchase a 30-50 year roof and not get the complete system which affords them the benefit of it lasting longer than 12-15 years before they start to consider if they once again need a replacement.

Ed

john elliott

I think that charging for estimates is a delicious concept to those whose business it is to provide estimates. Most contractors' businesses are to provide contracting services, however. Those services are what the contractor is trying to sell.

The problem is that HO's need to know how much you are going to charge them for your services. You are suggesting that they are not going to get this information until they have commited to paying a fee. I can't think of anywhere else that a typical HO would need to pay some money in order to find out how much something is going to cost them.

Any HO confronted with a person who is asking for money before he is even going to tell them how much he will charge for carrying out their project is going to think that this guy is going to be VERY expensive. They would be justified for thinking this. The contractor concerned would have shown that he is going to charge for everything.

I think you need to come at the problem of the time wasted on estimates that do not result in a sale differently. Find a way of giving them an idea of the cost in the first half hour that I presume you still intend to provide FOC.

John

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Ed the Roofer said "John too, in his crass and blunt demeanor.............."

George Z

I hope we contractors charge for estimates,
to the people that hire us.
If the person that does the estimating (sometimes the owner)
gets his salary for doing that, among other things, then he is
getting paid for that. Overhead covers that.
By the 30% or so of people that hire the contractor.

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Tscarborough

John Elliot, ask an architect if he will provide a budget for your house for free as an example of a segment of our industry that has gotten away from giving away their work.

realpurty2

Ok, I'm going to respond to this thread from two different view points because both I think will be useful.

*disclaimer... Ed I am NOT singling you out, but using your comments as example since you asked for feedback*

First thinking as a homeowner. As a female, it's usually me that wants the work done. I'll get this grand idea of adding a room, enlarging the kitchen so I can have an island cooktop instead of reg. range etc. Now I have the privilege of just putting all my wants on the "honey-do" list, but in those years before Ken, I had to hire anything I wanted done. I owned a home before so I was constantly using contractors for repairs and remodeling. (Long winded way of saying I know the homeowner buying mentality.. I was one..lol )

So Ed... your here to give me a quote on a new roof.
I'm listening intently but subconciously waiting for the catch.. you've put me on guard with your first sentence.

I'm thinking to myself "Hmm, here goes the sales pitch.. he's quoting statistics..

I'm going to be polite and say "Yes" but at this point, I'm regretting ever getting you on my property because I've already dismissed you as a knowlegable contractor, your just a smooth talking salesman in my eyes.

I'm hearing bits and pieces at this point and checking my watch to see how much of my time your wasting. I'm growing frustrated because you've been talking all this time and haven't addressed my roof at all. I called you out here to talk about MY roof, not every other roofing contractor and their process. Just give me what I wanted and I'd be content.

I'm thinking "I don't care what you call it, just tell me what to expect it to cost if I use your company" but I politely smile and answer "That sounds good."

At this point... I have very little confidence that you have roofing experience but that you have bought every sales video advertised on late night TV. But I'm still politely smiling and acting interested because it's just the courteous thing to do.

Again, I'm going to smile politely and answer yes while thinking " just give me a something already.. it's not like listening to you is all I have to do today"

I heard little more of that but this part "but for just a small minimum fee of $ ***.00, you can purchase our years of experience in creating a master specification document for your "Scope of Work and Cost Analysis". " and I am getting more furious by the moment because now I feel you have totally wasted my time completely and I'm just about past being polite.

The answer you'd likely get is whatever came to mind first that would get you gone and this over with. I might tell you that I want to think about it more, or that we've already gotten other bids, or that I'll have to talk it over with my hubby before going further... anything nonconfrontational to get you gone at this point.

John Elliott hit it on the head right here...

As a homeowner, I want to spend my money on my roof, not on being told how much it will cost me. I don't care if you give me credit back if I choose you because if I don't, I lost my money for nothing. The only way I would be ok with this is if it cost me for every estimate I received... and it didn't. The others before you came out, took measurements, asked me what I wanted, showed me shingle options, discussed color choices, told me if I was getting 20lb or 30lb felt or what, and the guy who I had decided to go with was a bit higher but he also addressed how he planned on keeping my yard clean of debris while he was working. He asked me where I wanted them to park equipment while they were here, what time of morning to expect them to start etc. I chose that guy because of what all he offered for his price, even though it was not the lowest bid.


Now, as a business owner... how do we choose to combat "free" estimates? It depends on the service they are requesting.

If it's something small, we do the estimate without a charge because it really is nothing more than an investment of our time. This only applies to small projects though.

For larger projects that would actually involve substantial time commitments, the estimate is exactly that... an estimate. The estimate consists of a series of pre-designed questions that pertain to the services we offer. (Using the roofing example.. "What type shingles were you thinking of? Length of warranty choice etc.") They are all standardized and written in advance, used over and over . The entire process takes an hour or less on site. (Also allows anyone in the company to go do an estimate based on a price list we keep made up and current) A basic ballpark is given based on the answers to allow the homeowner to gain confidence that we are within their budget.

When that is achieved, they have the option of a $50 design consult that will greatly detail every aspect of their project (sort of an informal "blueprint") and that fee is credited to the contract amount.

This is getting too long, I better shut up now, but you get the idea.

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PressurePros

Thanks Purty. I agree with you that I would smell too much "salesman" in the above and get disenchanted

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Pressure Washing PA
Roof Cleaning Services PA