A Dumb Questions Abuot Paperwork And Contract.

fathersonfab

I used to own a wood shop doing production work, and have been doing handyman work lately where I show up, tell the customer it will be $XX per hour and then start working. I'm a little new to the Contracting biz (taking my test in about a month).

My question is, is there ever a minimum dollar about that you wouldn't do full contract, notice to owner, paperwork, etc. Especially if there are subs involved?

Lets say the job is a small kitchen remodel. One hired sub for plumbing, one for electrical, and GC installs a few cabinets. 3-4 days max, (just an example). On a small job, do you still pull permits, big contract, notices to owner, verify subs WC and lisences, etc.?

Does the owner ever think, "Geez, whats with all the paperwork for such a small job"?

I think I already know the answer for this. But I'd like some input by the seasoned verterans on this. It just seems like allot of time going over paperwork with the customer before the tools ever come out.

Where do you draw the line where the amount of time spent doing the contracts and permits just isn't worth the effort? Or am I over-thinking this, is the paperwork a smaller amount of time than I imagine?

Thanks.

send_it_all

I think you should go through all the proper steps on every job. I have been guilty of sidestepping them myself, but I have decided that I will not do that any more. If you don't want to run the risk of getting hosed out of money, you should go through the proper steps. BTW, where in O.C. are you?...I'm in Huntington Beach.

ATH

We also do mostly "smallish" jobs. We do a full-blown contract (6 or 7 pages if memory serves) for all jobs greater than a grand. This is partly because the Commonwealth of Massachusetts requires a contract with lots of specific wording on jobs over $1,000.

Between $500 and $1,000 we have a short, 1 page contract that we attach to the estimate, but the customer still signs an "agreement."

Below $500, we have the customer sign a copy of the estimate "authorizing us to do the work."

Our problem is with T&M jobs. What do you folks do to get a signed contract when the customer just says "do it and send me the bill?"

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Wayne
Around the House
http://www.MyPowerCouple.com

Chris Johnson

Well, you and I both live in Sue Happy California, I know exactly where you are coming from, I grew up in Ontario, Canada and when I was contracting there 99% of the time a handshake was good enough, now in California everyone has me scared that 99% of the time the contract is needed, so I use it faithfully each and every job from $ 500 - 1/2 million dollar contracts. With seeing the way people are and I do get people saying "but I was expecting this" you need the contract to save yourself the headache. If it's all spelled out, right down to all the i's dotted and t's crossed with your specs. there is no argument, keep in mind I spend more time reviewing the scope of work and answer any questions prior to signing, if I know of an upgrade available that was talked about but not included I point it out and make them fully aware. Even though you have a contract, there is still nothing worse than telling someone "it's not in the contract" make them fully aware before proceding on the job.

You don't want to fight with people, you just want to do the job and make some money, move on to the next one, the contract protects both parties. Mind you if you need a lawyer to help enforce payment because of miscominication in the contract that doesn't help either. This is why I try to get it all explained upfront and if your gut tells you there is going to be a problem, rely on it and walk away.

Chris

fathersonfab

WOW, THAT WAS FAST. Thanks to all who have commented so far. Mike, I'm in HB also.

Chris, I know what you mean. I did a job several months ago converting a lady's garage into a laundry area with work table and builting cabinets. It was all on a hand shake and told her my hourly rate. I gave her an "estimate" of $2800 and even told her it was an estimate. I said I'll be keeping trake of my hours and I was working mostly weekends. Of course things got added here and there, "can also you install _____". I said sure, and logged my time spent. When it was finally done time and materials was about $3400. She about had a cow. The only way to fix it and get paid the final payment was to eat it, finish the job and chaulk it up to experience. That was the day I learned about the all important CHANGE ORDER! And vowed to never do another deal with out at least a one pager contract.

The second part of my question was about subs... I am asumming you still jump through all the legal hoops for hired subs, no matter how small the job is?

btw Chris, My dad was from Ontario Canada. I still have family that lives there.

TridentOps

your post is right on. Never take a chance. I worked for a rocket scientist who did, and got spanked harshly for it.

As far as subs, I would say this goes double.

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Trident Construction Management
Remodeling, Landscape and Water Features

JamesNLA

I see you also worked at one of my former customers house....

AtlanticWBConst

As far as remodeling something like a kitchen and hiring subs and requesting their insurance paperwork, getting permits, etc...
It's the nature of the business. No matter the size of the job, If we pull in a sub, we want to see all his paperwork and have them an file. Every year, I call around to all the insurance companies of the subs that we currently use and request an updated copy of their insurance. (If I ask the sub to provide it, it takes forever)

It's not up to the HO to roll their eyes about the paperwork that you are required by code to file and the hoops your are required by law to jump thru.
If you want to continue in the business, you need to protect yourself, and paperwork can help to do that, as well as following what the local inspectional offices and state laws require.

When we do a job like that kitchen remodel you mentioned or even a small bath remodel, we inform the HO of the requirements. We do this verbally and on paper (the proposal and contract). We have a section on "Pre-construction work" or "Prior to the start of work". In those sections it lists the 'work' that will need to be done in order to acquire the permits (i.e. - Plot map for additions, forms to be filled out, checking with the city for preliminary approval of an add, etc).

Basically, we draw the line, where the laws draw the line, or where the laws tell us we can draw the 'line'....

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- Build Well -

fathersonfab

Thanks Atlantic,

That was exactly the answer I was looking for. Especially the part about working with subs. I know paperwork = protection.

I'm sure that doing all the permits and paperwork shows the HO your are professional and the job will get done right, vs. the Jamoke who comes in and says, "Yea, I'll do that for $1500" then pulls out his tools and collects a check.

Thanks again.