Do You Subscribe To The Punch List Mentality?

Mike Finley

I stated a thread not long ago about how I see the pattern of how subs cut their own throats in this business.

Today I got another dose of it. One of our subs is currently chasing the dollars and let one of his "solutions" fill in for him on one of our jobs. Today was trim out day for this job so myself and 2 others showed up to trim the job out and finish it. Within moments of arriving myself and my guys start noticing things that need to be addressed from our sub's man. About an hour later this gentleman by coincidence shows up to collect his tools he has left around and I mention the list of issues. "No problem man, I will be back in a few days to take care of them." I have to mention to him that the jobs being completed today, we are here finishing it and the homeowner is getting their bathroom turned back over to them, and actually do you remember that your part of it was supposed to be done the day before yesterday and actually you blew the original deadline that was 3 days before that and now you're telling us 3 days from today.

That's when he gave me the "punch list" line. "Man, it's just a punch list, don't you guys have punch lists on jobs?" when he was told no, that the job was completed on the day it is always scheduled and there are no such things as punch lists, he couldn't believe it. It was like I was from Mars.

The guy just can't believe a punch list is not acceptable. Never heard of such a thing. He told me that is the way he has been doing it for over 10 years. At the end of every job he has the GC go over it and gives him a punch list.

When I told him every other trade partner we use (that is in his trade) doesn't believe in a punch list either he couldn't believe that either. I explained to him that sure there might be a little something here or there to address, and if there is we usually take care of it ourselves because it's just minor, but one or two things is not a punch list such as the 12 things you need to address, the two have nothing in common with each other.

He couldn't believe it for an instant that his peers are actually doing work that doesn't require somebody to come in after they are done and tell them what is wrong with it.

dougchips

It sounds like this will be his last job for your company? If someone requires you to create a list of their faults so they can correct them they should learn their trade.

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KillerToiletSpider

Mike, you need better subs.

I generally point out more problems to the GC than they find themselves, like the job I was on last week, when the architects valve locations for the control valves for the 28 body sprays would be right in the middle of the raised carved portion of the granite slab that was being used for the shower walls. I pulled off that job while the architect and the HO redesign the entire shower.

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tinner666

I'd be looking for a new sub and let the original know why.

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Brian

Mike,

I feel your pain.

We are doing a job a long time customer. She hired a GC for a fairly large remodel, but insisted we do the painting. I insisted that my contract be with her and not the GC.

This job was supposed to be completed in January. We just got it about 10 days ago. The GC wanted us to prep and put one coat on everything, so that we could fix the "damage" that would occur later. I told the customer we could do that, but I didn't understand why there should be damage. We'd be happy to accomodate the GC, but there would be a mobilization charge and charges for any damage. And he could pay for it. He's already whining about paying me to repair and paint a 500 sf ceiling his guys flooded.

The fact that everyone else does it that way doesn't concern me. I don't and apparently you don't either. If others want to spend their time pointing fingers, blaming other trades, and saying "that's how everyone else does it" they can. And they will be like 90% of contractors within 5 years-- out of business.

Every small business owner has to deal with a lot of crap. The good ones probably have to deal with more, because for us a lot more constitutes crap. But we'll be around when the others run for the hills. We develop a solid reputation, loyal customers, and we sleep well at night knowing that we are doing right by everyone. (And when we don't sleep well at night, it's because we are trying to figure out how to do right by eveyone.)

The crap you are experiencing is both a challenge and an opportunity. The challenge is overcoming such attitudes and getting the work done. The opportunity is that such attitudes make it very easy to shine.

Mike, your standards and expectations should serve as an inspiration for everyone in the construction trades. They do for me, because it's nice to know someone shares them.

Brian Phillips

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dougchips

Mike, if this is how the guy operates and he has always operated this way.......did any of his references give a hint about this? Do you call other GC's when checking out a sub? (I don't but I will now).

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POOLMANinCT

oh man , this guy is gonna slam you on craigs list!!!!. you are so screwed finley!!!!!!!

ray

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dirt diggler

i am never creating another punch list again. It's simply another way of saying

"I am no longer making money on your job, therefore I will finish it on my own whim"

from now on - no more punch lists

firemike

I agree with MIke, a punch list is basically a sign of poor craftsmanship and sloppy work, especially on smaller jobs like additions, kitchen and bath remods, etc.

I would be totally embarassed if a client had to give me a list of things that were forgotten, poorly done, or not done right. Sure, there is going to be a nick in the drywall once in a while, or scuffed paint from laying carpet or other flooring, but that is all taken care of BEFORE it is turned over to the client.

Before I turn a project over, I walk through and make sure everything is perfect. Doesn't matter if it is a simple project like painting a bedroom or a commercial build-out with offices, bathrooms, lobby, etc. Everything is perfect before I tell the client it is done.

And like Mike, my subs know how meticulous I am, and they are too. They take pride in their work, and know I won't let them leave until it is as perfect as we can make it. If a tradesperson can't see a problem and correct it or let me know about it before the client finds it, he don't work for me!

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Grumpyplumber

Mike,
I've always seen plumbing shops do punchlists, BUT not the GC, usually.
I'm human...so it's common that I run out of angle stops, traps, or desanco's...etc.
If I have enough work to stay busy on a finish, then I'll put off the trip to the supplier and keep a running "punch-list" for my next visit.
It's MY responsibility to make MY punchlist and schedule myself accordingly.
I've worked nights. sundays...you name it, just to keep a deadline when my schedule gets that tight.
It sounds like this guy couldn't just own his mistake and attempted to make your having to make a punch-list sound "par for the course".

On another note...if he's over-booked and can't make the time to finish current jobs, he's either greedy, inexperienced, or lazy.
Speaking of cutting your own throat -
I know a guy that took over a buz from his father, he immediately started "expanding" his dads buz.
Started lowballing jobs to ensure he got them...and he did.
He started hiring anyone who claimed they were experienced just to get his head count up, it worked.
I'd hear him say "Why are so many jobs having to be redone so often?", "Why are they taking so long?"...his father would be all over him and he wouldn't listen.
It's only a matter of time before there's a problem, and I mean a BIG problem...like a gas leak, or co poisoning...unless he finally just listens to his old man.

Mike Finley

You're exactly right, that's exactly what it was. His boss called me probably 20 minutes later with some questions about another job he is doing for us and I asked him if he had heard from his man. Turns out the guy called him immediately after leaving our site. His boss said, yeah he told me there was a couple of things that needed to be touched up. After I realized what game was being played I read off the list to him and he went through the roof when he found out it was far more than a 'touch up' here and there.

We do our own punch lists too, during the job we call them running punch lists, just a good way to keep track of what still needs to be done. On a trim out day the first thing we do is make up the punch list of everything we need to do for that day. I've found by accident one of my guys is totally motivated by this process, he just really digs being able to go to the list and pick things to do and getting to cross them off the list himself. Little things like that turn out to be motivators for some guys. It psychs him up for some reason, he'll be whistling away whenever he gets to take out his pencil and cross off something.

ChrWright

I agree Mike...A running list is one of the most powerful ways to keep your people productive when you're not around.

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firemike

I agree with Mike and Chris, I don't call it a "punch list" though, more of a "To Be Completed" list. I either use a legal pad on small jobs, or a drywrite board on larger jobs. Everytime I come across something that needs attention, it gets put down on the list so it doesn't get forgotten.

I also use it to write down materials that I need to get too so I don't forget. On the bigger jobs, I divide the drywrite board up into sections so I and my guys as well as each sub has one. That way we can leave notes for each other, list items that need attention or need to be completed, etc. Makes communicating easier.

I have to admit that I like to cross things off the list too, makes me feel like I am acually getting something done. I always encourage everyone to write something down that needs attention when they see it, even if it is not their responsibility or trade. Like Grumpyplumber said, were only human. Better to have one of 'us' find something and note it than a client.

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-Mike-

Chris Johnson

I have found most guys can't see there own issues, it requires you to make a list for them, the running 'to be completed list' is a great idea, I found over the years certain trades want you to find there flaws and that is BS, and that is why I don't use them anymore, do it right, do it once, finish, get out, get paid.

Mike...obviously after you had the discussion with the guys boss he realized his profit just dropped to ZERO. 10 to 1 says this guy if working on his own was commanding a high enough wage that you should not be babysitting him. He should be impressing the heck out of you.

Someone once taught me, have you daily list of things to do and mark them off when done, if something doesn't get done that day it becomes the first priority the next day. Why did this guy have to wait a few days to come back for the punchlist stuff?

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Chris

MinConst

To reply to the origial post

NO

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DavidNTX

A punch list is to correct things that were missed, not a list that is there for us to add things to that we don't want to do or don't have time to do now.

Tom M

There is nothing wrong with a punch list. I will put it in contracts when I sense a difficult customer. You know the ones that have no problem changing things or adding a special order Item 3/4 of the way through. They expect a punch list so they can exercise the're consumer rights on what there paying for. To me I want to finish every last thing on that job yesterday and I know everything that needs to be done to but I dont want a customer holding 20k for an exterior remodel because a gutter sub for $800 is backed up for a week or some special hardware in a kitchen or worse a damaged piece or missing filler that gets sent back for repair. The bulk of the work is done. I leave 5% on the table for these type of customers so they dont feel like they got a hit and run job. This 5% is usually profit money so you are current up to date and keeps the consumer from holding you hostage for small items. Its can be a good policy for certain types of projects and certain types of clients.

tinner666

You're right about nothing being wrong with a punch list. I keep a tally myself.

I think the issue here is a guy literally leaving stuff undone, or sloppily done. And he knew it! I could have read this wrong, but that's my take on it.
And a major problem there is that if you leave obvious stuff 'In the customer's face', he'll start digging for hidden and imaginary stuff. It can turn the whole job into a nightmare, insofar as getting that last payment. Of even draws for that matter. I've seen it happen.

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Grumpyplumber

Right...kinda like going to the barber
He tells you "OK...you're all set"
You get home and see clumps of uncut hair...go back and ask him why he left it like that...he says "Oh...I figured you'd come back and let me know if there were any problems"

A barber will usually pull out a mirror for you to see...then ask, "Is that too long?"

If, for some reason the sub couldn't finish, I bet the WHOLE thing would have been different had he just told Mike straight up....instead of walking off without a word.

mdshunk

Announcing you're done, when you obviously aren't, is the problem.

When I have little things yet left undone, I just say so. I just tell the guy, I'm about 95% done, I have X,Y, and Z yet to do, I'll be back at 10:30 tomorrow to finish them, and I should be done by noon.

Communication, communication.