The Customer Wants A Breakdown

bwalley · 01-24-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbsremodeling

I made light of your post Winchester. But that might actually be a good tactic to use when some one asks for a break down. I could get a lot of mileage out of that scenario.

You got me scratching my 48 hour beard on that idea. hmmmmm

A client called me because she backed into her garage with her van and was turning in a claim to her homeowners insurance, I gave her a bid that was pretty reasonable and it was lump sum, the insurance company wouldn't accept it, they needed line items.

So I talked to a friend of mine who is an adjustor for USAA, and asked her how to write it up because it was a small job and the lineal foot prices didn't work out, she said on samll jobs they will apply minimum charges and told me what they would pay.

So I rewrote the bid and the adjuster asked why the job tripled in price, I told him because since it was a small job and there were different crafts involved, I used the insurance industry standard minimums and the bid is what it is, he didn't like it but they paid the claim.

I was probably too low to begin with, so in this case it was a good idea to do line item bidding.

Morale of the story is, if you nickel and dime the insurance company you can be very profitable, but I hate having to play their games so I rarely deal with insurance work.

RidgeWalker · 01-24-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Huge misconception that not giving a break down means the only alternative is you will convey non-trustworthiness and no confidence and suspicion.

That logic could be applied to anything.

Customer - I want to drive your truck everyday that you are here working, you won't need it so I want to drive it around.

Contractor - Well sure, of course. (I dont' want to make it seem like I don't trust him, he might lose his confidence in me and I might not get this job)

Customer - I also want a copy of your income taxes from last year.

Contractor - of course.

Please explain what else not providing a client a breakdown who askes for one produces in the relationship? I'd like to know your perspective about it.

JTMcC · 01-24-2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

Something else has struck me about providing a breakdown if a client request's one. Transparency. In todays world when a single blog or forum post can bring huge company to their knees prospects are realizing that they want companies who are transparent, or in other words don't feel they have to hide information from their clinets. The second a prospect askes for a client breakdown you know if you refuse you just created a certian level of suspicion and distrust. They are asking themselves, what's he got to hide.

Many of us interpurate their motive as negative, and that they'll use the information against us or another peer. That's a risk of course, but if you are the only 1 out of 3 or 4 contractors they spoke with that gave them a breakdown how does that make you appear to them?

Transparent, trustworthy, and confident.

Wouldn't those be attributes we'd want to instil in our propsects who are trying to make an informed decision about hiring a contractor?

There's something else many of us need to take heed to. Every singe thing you post on forums is forever recorded on the internet and how we respond here can be seen by any one with just a few keystrokes and a mouse click. Many of us have linked to our web sites and our profiles actually give our locations. I personally think back at how I responded on post's and regret that it is forever recorded.

Yes this is probably better of as another thread but some of the responses here concern me in that we don't fully realize the implications and ramifications our postings can have on our industry as a whole and on our business individually.

I responded to a reply on this thread with with a "most excellent" remark. I retract that because I realize it could make outsiders precieve me in a manner which isn't consistant with how I conduct business.

So,
If the client askes for a breakdown choose yourself what you want to do, I know what I'd do. Transparancy!

PS: At the time I posted this the forum had 35 unrigistered viewers, who do you think they are?

It has absolutely nothing to do with "hiding" anything from my customer.

We are selling, as much as anything, the knowledge (gained over years of paying dilligent attention) of how to do our work in the most efficient manner, the ability to repair work done by others, and the ability to do difficult work for a prime contractor without harming (and hopefully even helping) his beloved schedule.
I don't know what line of the "break down" we would put those charges on

JTMcC.

RidgeWalker · 01-24-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTMcC

It has absolutely nothing to do with "hiding" anything from my customer.

We are selling, as much as anything, the knowledge (gained over years of paying dilligent attention) of how to do our work in the most efficient manner, the ability to repair work done by others, and the ability to do difficult work for a prime contractor without harming (and hopefully even helping) his beloved schedule.
I don't know what line of the "break down" we would put those charges on

JTMcC.

I know we are not "hiding" anything it can just apear that way from the clients perspective.

Mike Finley · 01-25-2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

Please explain what else not providing a client a breakdown who askes for one produces in the relationship? I'd like to know your perspective about it.

All I'm saying is you're kind of acting like if a customer voices the words - do you give a line item break down or can I get a line item break down... and you don't say YES SIR! the only outcome is distrust and all the other words you used that I'm too tired to go back and look up.

I can walk up to somebody and slap him hard across the back of the head... does that mean I'm in for a beating no matter what? Or do the words that come out of my mouth directly after have any effect?

Two instances - the next words out of my mouth could be : take that mouther F'er piece of sh*t...

... or the next words out of my mouth could be - there was a black widow on your neck, see it right there on the floor now, I killed it.

Just because a customer asks for a break down doesn't mean I can't influence the outcome by my response.

I could say YES SIR!
I could say F no asshole
I could say "Huh, you're the first customers who has ever asked me that, now what exactly do you want?... Uh huh... hmmm, now why exactly would you want that? Oh, I see, well you know what, actually if that's the only reason then you probably don't need one because we do this, this and this... Oh, you don't need one now? Okay, now lets talk about your down payment..."

I've been in sales a long time and did them for a long time and the one thing I learned is never give up anything without first making sure you need to. Lesson #2 is always follow a customers question with a question.

Millions of cumulative dollars have been lost over salespeople thinking they know why a customer is asking a question. Millions of cumulative dollars have been gained by sales people who realize they don't know why the customer is asking for what they are until they ask them why?

DavidC · 01-25-2009, 09:01 AM

Can anyone explain to me why only contractors have to provide a breakdown of costs to the consumer? What is so different about our industry?

Hardly a day goes by that we don't purchase goods or services. Where are the breakdowns for all of this?

Most of the time the question is asked only because the prospect does not know what else to ask. It is normally a veiled request for what am I getting for my money?. The answer is a wonderful project built by us to these outstanding specifications in a timely manner. And we even clean up after ourselves.

Our proposals outline what we will do, the materials specified, the standard of workmanship we will follow, allowances for certain HO chosen materials and a list of owner responsibilities. Our contract covers the payment schedule and time frame for the work. That is primarily the info most clients are really seeking, if only they knew how to ask.

Educate them on what we will do for them, not what the contracts does for us.

Good Luck
Dave

bwalley · 01-25-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidC

Can anyone explain to me why only contractors have to provide a breakdown of costs to the consumer? What is so different about our industry?

Hardly a day goes by that we don't purchase goods or services. Where are the breakdowns for all of this?

Most of the time the question is asked only because the prospect does not know what else to ask. It is normally a veiled request for what am I getting for my money?. The answer is a wonderful project built by us to these outstanding specifications in a timely manner. And we even clean up after ourselves.

Our proposals outline what we will do, the materials specified, the standard of workmanship we will follow, allowances for certain HO chosen materials and a list of owner responsibilities. Our contract covers the payment schedule and time frame for the work. That is primarily the info most clients are really seeking, if only they knew how to ask.

Educate them on what we will do for them, not what the contracts does for us.

Good Luck
Dave

I think people get the idea that a contractor owes them a breakdown because they have possibly seen insurance estimates, or because they want to make sure the 2x4 that they can buy for $2.54 at HD isn't being sold to them for $3.00.

They are also confused thinking hiring a contractor is like buying a sweater at Burdines or at Macy's, it is the same sweater but the one at Burdines my be cheaper.

Where hiring a Contractor to do a job is not the same, it is a relationship that is being entered into to get a job completed, the more elaborate or expensive the job is, the longer the relationship will be, that is why if I have an issue during the bidding stage of a job and realize the client is going to be overly difficult or a PITA, I won't take their job.

RidgeWalker · 01-25-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

All I'm saying is you're kind of acting like if a customer voices the words - do you give a line item break down or can I get a line item break down... and you don't say YES SIR! the only outcome is distrust and all the other words you used that I'm too tired to go back and look up.

I can walk up to somebody and slap him hard across the back of the head... does that mean I'm in for a beating no matter what? Or do the words that come out of my mouth directly after have any effect?

Two instances - the next words out of my mouth could be : take that mouther F'er piece of sh*t...

... or the next words out of my mouth could be - there was a black widow on your neck, see it right there on the floor now, I killed it.

Just because a customer asks for a break down doesn't mean I can't influence the outcome by my response.

I could say YES SIR!
I could say F no asshole
I could say "Huh, you're the first customers who has ever asked me that, now what exactly do you want?... Uh huh... hmmm, now why exactly would you want that? Oh, I see, well you know what, actually if that's the only reason then you probably don't need one because we do this, this and this... Oh, you don't need one now? Okay, now lets talk about your down payment..."

I've been in sales a long time and did them for a long time and the one thing I learned is never give up anything without first making sure you need to. Lesson #2 is always follow a customers question with a question.

Millions of cumulative dollars have been lost over salespeople thinking they know why a customer is asking a question. Millions of cumulative dollars have been gained by sales people who realize they don't know why the customer is asking for what they are until they ask them why?

I guess we have differant views Mike and that's ok. Everything I do is based many years of experiance as a salesman. Things I say and the way I respond to clients questions or requests work for me, they might not work for others. My responces here are based on my experiance of home owners, and with this topic it's usually not a good idea to refuse to give a client a "breakdown".

I guess we should also be defining the word breakdown as well, it seems that to some here it means we must expose our profit margins by showing material cost, labor, and profit. While others feel its a line item list of the scope of work, and others it could mean a line item breakdown of the charges that are being added to derive at the final cost.

Like I said earlier in the thread, my experiance's have shown me that most home oweners are asking for a breakdown to know exactly what scope of work I'm purposing to do and what materials I'm using to complete the job.

I've also experianced the home owner who brings up the, I can get another contractor to do it at a lower cost then you objection. My experiance has shown me that I didn't close the sale properly in the first place because of that the client felt the need to shop around while waiting for thier insurance paperwork to come in. Then sometimes those very clients ask the next question, what's your breakdown.

TBFGhost · 01-25-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

Morale of the story is, if you nickel and dime the insurance company you can be very profitable, but I hate having to play their games so I rarely deal with insurance work.

I used to be a head tech at a body shop. We did ALOT of insurance work as you could imagine. We hardly kept any extra supplies in house. Things that I would need, such as nuts, bolts, clips, rivits, etc etc. When I first started there, I hated that b/c I never had what I needed....I came from another body shop which had huge inhouse bins of extra hardware.

Then I figured out the gig....we had a computer installed back near my bay, and on each computer there were parts disgrams. As I tore a car down I would stop and count the amount of clips I broke, or the extra nuts and bolts I needed. I would located them on the computer and write down the part numbers. I would tack that onto the estimate. Most of the time adding an extra 1 or 2 of the items to be safe. When I was done with the tear down, I spent 5 min to 2 hours depending on how well the job was written or how much extra damage I found, with the office people.

This was two fold. The car got everything OEM right down to nuts and bolts and we got to charge the insurance company for EVERYTHING we used, which is fair if you ask me. We became VERY profitable...our shop, out of the other 5 that where owned by the same company soon rose to the top. I might have still been working there to this day had it not been for the owners starting to do illegal things with the money....now only one shop remains open, the brothers don't talk, one took the other to court and one got arrested.

You want to talk about nickel and dime. Oddy enough, that has carried over with me to contracting...sometimes people see the material list and

. But everything is there that should be and it is accurate, and I can justify it.

The bodyshop gave me a small heads up when coming into contracting. About charging for everything, I saw and knew the mark-up on material which ranged from 25-45%. I also saw that we marked up labor 100%. I would go around, ask the guys how long it would take to do something, we all got very good at estimating our parts. I was teardown, then it went to frame work, then body work, then prep, paint, back to me to get put back together, then to detail. I would get time estimates from every "dept." and double that time. I first thought I would ripping people off and didn't agree, but then I started to learn how companies worked and made money. Having an up front seat, and being one of the people who edited the work orders/estimates to ensure job profit taught me alot.

At one time we had a great crew working there, I just learned the door shut last week. We made some really bad wrecks come as near perfect as you can ask. We took pride in our work, did it right, but the customers paid for it. The ones who wanted hack jobs cheap we sent away.... It was VERY hard to tell we had ever been there...

Mike Finley · 01-25-2009, 10:55 AM

No disrespect, but I haven't a clue what the hell you're trying to say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

I guess we have differant views Mike and that's ok. Everything I do is based many years of experiance as a salesman. Things I say and the way I respond to clients questions or requests work for me, they might not work for others. My responces here are based on my experiance of home owners, and with this topic it's usually not a good idea to refuse to give a client a "breakdown".

How can you say they work for you if the only result is you are turning around bending over and saying how's that? the angle right for you?

A salesman impresses me when he controls the situation in a positive way that leads the sale down the path defined by the company the salesman works for. I'm not impressed by a salesman who's only skills are say Yes, Sir! That's an order taker to me not a salesperson.

Now, if your business model works for you because you have developed a method to compensate for your lack of being able to avoid giving break downs, that's fine. No problems, more power to you. There are lots of ways to skin the cat in home improvements.

BUT - don't think because you have to give break downs that it's a given that without doing it we are all alienating our customers. That's not the case at all. I've closed plenty of contracts where customers have requested break downs. All it takes is about 30 seconds to get over that request and move on with everybody feeling rosy and happy.

These are the most imporatant things to know in any business:

#1 You are going to get the type of customers you advertise for.

#2 Advertise for the customers you want.

Break downs and line items are a rare request for me because I follow #1 and #2. I might get asked for a break down about once every couple of months or so. Out of those who ask I'd say 75% or more of them are asking for reasons other than those that we think are the bad reasons customers ask for that. When you break those percentages down the whole issue of line item and break down request doesn't even get in my top 100 things I would look at as an issue in my construction company. I may have it wrong but it seems like it's an everyday occurance for you.

If a customer needs it for a construction loan or an insurance claim in order to qualify for the money, that's one thing. It's quite another if a large percentage of just plain ole residential customers are requesting this of you.

If that's the case I can absolutely guarantee you are bringing that on upon yourself with the way you are positioning yourself in your market place. People do not walk into a McDonald's and be shocked and upset that there is no Whopper on the menu or that there are no Taco Grande's on the menu.

RidgeWalker · 01-25-2009, 01:51 PM

Mike,
Your response reminds of the person who's just about to tell a lie and the lie follows, "To be honest with you....". I mean no disrespect, but what I'm about to say is going to disprespect you.

To me your post assumes that I'm a completely weak salesmen because I choose to provide a breakdown should a client request one. If that is the case that's fine, however it is far removed from the truth but I feel no need to prove anything to you about my abilities. I'm definetly not hear to bow to any ones feet to impress or gain respect.

If I am right, your judging me based on a small portion of the overall relationship we have as contractors with our clients. That's ok too, it's your perogitive to do so.

The statement you make about the 2 most important things to know in any business is either your opinion of the opinion of some one else that you believe it. I agree they are important but not the 2 most important. However I don't feel the need to disagree and debate that statement because you have your beliefs and I have mine. Trying to convince another business owner that he re-evaluate his position on a topic can be like pulling teeth in many cases. I don't bother with it.

The OP asked for advice on what do to about the clients request. He didn't ask us to pound each other for having differant views about his question.

I posted my opinion based on my experiance and that's it, I feel no need to knock how other people respond. You stated that I have a Huge misconception, by who's standard is it a misconception? Your's? If that's the case an I suppose to change everything I believe because your the established industry authority figure? I think not, and I no doubt believe that you are smart and successful in your business but I won't engender myself to you based on your responce to my views.

A W Smith · 01-25-2009, 02:33 PM

let me preface by saying that I have only read the fist page of this thread at this time.

They want a breakdown? heres what you do,

break out the phases of the job by trade or work division

material and labor together (don't break them out)

demo
grade preparation and excavation
foundation
slab
framing
block out and or truss setting
sheathing
set man doors and windows
garage door
roofing
siding
grade and seed

now this is very important. include a hidden set up and clean up charge for each one of these phases, the total itemized breakdown should go way above your contract bid

Right about then your potential client should have their nervous breakdown that they wanted.

the final line should be the discount for an all inclusive complete job which should be your original bid total. This will shut the client up, it will dissuade him from shopping the phases out as it will remove his "discount'. Explain to him that keeping the entire job under your control removes unknown variables and thats where the discount comes in. lets say he wants a door supplier of his own or goes the box store route. go back to the non discounted total for the entire job because he has just exposed you to an unknown element of risk and contingency.

Mike Finley · 01-25-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

Mike,
Your response reminds of the person who's just about to tell a lie and the lie follows, "To be honest with you....". I mean no disrespect, but what I'm about to say is going to disprespect you.

To me your post assumes that I'm a completely weak salesmen because I choose to provide a breakdown should a client request one. If that is the case that's fine, however it is far removed from the truth but I feel no need to prove anything to you about my abilities. I'm definetly not hear to bow to any ones feet to impress or gain respect.

If I am right, your judging me based on a small portion of the overall relationship we have as contractors with our clients. That's ok too, it's your perogitive to do so.

The statement you make about the 2 most important things to know in any business is either your opinion of the opinion of some one else that you believe it. I agree they are important but not the 2 most important. However I don't feel the need to disagree and debate that statement because you have your beliefs and I have mine. Trying to convince another business owner that he re-evaluate his position on a topic can be like pulling teeth in many cases. I don't bother with it.

The OP asked for advice on what do to about the clients request. He didn't ask us to pound each other for having different views about his question.

I posted my opinion based on my experience and that's it, I feel no need to knock how other people respond. You stated that I have a Huge misconception, by who's standard is it a misconception? Your's? If that's the case an I suppose to change everything I believe because your the established industry authority figure? I think not, and I no doubt believe that you are smart and successful in your business but I won't engender myself to you based on your response to my views.

Nope, don't take it there. This is simple. You said and I quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

Transparency. In todays world when a single blog or forum post can bring huge company to their knees prospects are realizing that they want companies who are transparent, or in other words don't feel they have to hide information from their clients.

Maybe your clients do. My clients could careless. Transparency is the last on the list.

Ridge you can argue it all you want. I'm telling you my experience you are telling me yours. I'm not saying in your business that what you are saying is wrong, I saying that as a blanket statement that's not right. My experiences disprove it on a daily basis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

The second a prospect askes for a client breakdown you know if you refuse you just created a certain level of suspicion and distrust. They are asking themselves, what's he got to hide.

Again, maybe in your business that is true and you are relating your experiences based on what you do for a living. In my business that is not the case and therefore it's not the case in others either.

Again, this subject is absolutely no different then the mark up materials subject. The argument is always smoke and mirrors by those that say don't do it. The bottom line is that issue and this one have NOTHING to do with anything but SALES AND MARKETING. Those that don't mark up always end up admitting that the bottom line reason for it has nothing to do with ethics or all the other smoke screens they put up, they always finally admit it has everything to do with making it easier to make the sale.

This subject is no different. Weak salespeople fall back upon weak tried and true tactics - I don't mark up materials, I will give them to you at cost if you choose me. or You want a break down, here it is... those are no different you actually said it yourself right here, you intimate that it is nothing more than a sales tactic-

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

That's a risk of course, but if you are the only 1 out of 3 or 4 contractors they spoke with that gave them a breakdown how does that make you appear to them?

Transparent, trustworthy, and confident.

Again, show me anybody who uses those two tactics against somebody who doesn't and you're showing me the first person is a weak salesman the second isn't. I don't know how anybody would even begin to say that isn't so. It's no different then a person who sells by dropping the price. No different. The Mantra that connects all those types is this - the instant the customer puts up anything even resembling an objection the salesperson drops his pants. That's an inexperienced salesperson who hasn't developed the skills to work around these very simple issues.

As for this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

There's something else many of us need to take heed to. Every singe thing you post on forums is forever recorded on the internet and how we respond here can be seen by any one with just a few keystrokes and a mouse click. Many of us have linked to our web sites and our profiles actually give our locations. I personally think back at how I responded on post's and regret that it is forever recorded.

Yes this is probably better of as another thread but some of the responses here concern me in that we don't fully realize the implications and ramifications our postings can have on our industry as a whole and on our business individually.

So,
If the client asks for a breakdown choose yourself what you want to do, I know what I'd do. Transparency!

PS: At the time I posted this the forum had 35 unrigistered viewers, who do you think they are?

My real name is on every post I make, my company website is on every post I make. I'm not hurting for business or profits, and I'm absolutely 100% NOT transparent.

Don't take it personally, this isn't about you personally, only your blanket statements that without transparency there is no outcome other than you are viewed as untrustworthy or suspicious.

Again and this is the last time I can say it - maybe this transparency thing is a huge problem for you in your business and what you do, it isn't in mine and many others so the only issue there is, really about transparency is if you don't have the skills to over come it, or if you are attracting customers who are hammering you on this issue, either develop better sales skills or develop better marketing to get better customers. Some of us can do this and some of us can't. Nothing more than that.

RidgeWalker · 01-25-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Nope, don't take it there. This is simple. You said and I quote:

Maybe your clients do. My clients could careless. Transparency is the last on the list.

Ridge you can argue it all you want. I'm telling you my experience you are telling me yours. I'm not saying in your business that what you are saying is wrong, I saying that as a blanket statement that's not right. My experiences disprove it on a daily basis.

Again, maybe in your business that is true and you are relating your experiences based on what you do for a living. In my business that is not the case and therefore it's not the case in others either.

Again, this subject is absolutely no different then the mark up materials subject. The argument is always smoke and mirrors by those that say don't do it. The bottom line is that issue and this one have NOTHING to do with anything but SALES AND MARKETING. Those that don't mark up always end up admitting that the bottom line reason for it has nothing to do with ethics or all the other smoke screens they put up, they always finally admit it has everything to do with making it easier to make the sale.

This subject is no different. Weak salespeople fall back upon weak tried and true tactics - I don't mark up materials, I will give them to you at cost if you choose me. or You want a break down, here it is... those are no different you actually said it yourself right here, you intimate that it is nothing more than a sales tactic-

Again, show me anybody who uses those two tactics against somebody who doesn't and you're showing me the first person is a weak salesman the second isn't. I don't know how anybody would even begin to say that isn't so. It's no different then a person who sells by dropping the price. No different. The Mantra that connects all those types is this - the instant the customer puts up anything even resembling an objection the salesperson drops his pants. That's an inexperienced salesperson who hasn't developed the skills to work around these very simple issues.

As for this:

My real name is on every post I make, my company website is on every post I make. I'm not hurting for business or profits, and I'm absolutely 100% NOT transparent.

Don't take it personally, this isn't about you personally, only your blanket statements that without transparency there is no outcome other than you are viewed as untrustworthy or suspicious.

Again and this is the last time I can say it - maybe this transparency thing is a huge problem for you in your business and what you do, it isn't in mine and many others so the only issue there is, really about transparency is if you don't have the skills to over come it, or if you are attracting customers who are hammering you on this issue, either develop better sales skills or develop better marketing to get better customers. Some of us can do this and some of us can't. Nothing more than that.

Guess what Mike, you get the last word. Good day.

Mike Finley · 01-25-2009, 05:50 PM

I'm not sure what that gets me, maybe a free cup of coffee somewhere?

Sorry, you shouldn't ask for somebodies perspective if you're not ready for the answer they might give you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

(Mike) Please explain what else not providing a client a breakdown who askes for one produces in the relationship? I'd like to know your perspective about it.

Brock · 01-25-2009, 05:53 PM

I'm taking the last word on this thread. It is officially closed....Good Day

...

duckdown · 01-26-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

how much transparency should we give the client?

Should they know exactly what we pay for everything and how much we pay for labor and then let them decide how much we should be able to make?

You are assuming that everyone asking for a breakdown is attempting to stick it to you. Maybe they have gotten burnt before with contractors who use suboptimal materials. Enumerating the materials is one way for a consumer to be protected.

For example, I could use old cheap caulk I had lying around in the truck that went through several freeze/thaw cycles or I could use some fresh stuff. The homeowner wouldn't know that I took a shortcut until after the warranty period. If they know exactly what materials they are receiving, they will be much happier.

Tscarborough · 01-26-2009, 08:09 AM

Enumerating the materials is called "plans and specifications". No quantities need be given, just the products to be used.

Mellison · 01-26-2009, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckdown

You are assuming that everyone asking for a breakdown is attempting to stick it to you. Maybe they have gotten burnt before with contractors who use suboptimal materials. Enumerating the materials is one way for a consumer to be protected.

For example, I could use old cheap caulk I had lying around in the truck that went through several freeze/thaw cycles or I could use some fresh stuff. The homeowner wouldn't know that I took a shortcut until after the warranty period. If they know exactly what materials they are receiving, they will be much happier.

Apples and oranges Duck,
What you are describing is a case of ethics. Knowingly providing a substandard product is unethical.

silvertree · 01-26-2009, 09:58 AM

I hear good arguments for itemized or lump sum bids. I also agree sectioned bids are good. I don't believe anyone can convince me one is better, because like most things these bids are as good as you make them to be.
No winner here in my opinion.
I like lump sum, with a detailed scope and a materials list with the allowance.
If your customers are picking the bid apart, communication got weak somewhere during the sales process.

01-25-2009, 09:01 AM	#86
DavidC View Profile DavidC DavidC Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,917) Photos (95) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity DavidC Trade: Remodeler Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: NNY Posts: 1,917	Re: The Customer Wants A Breakdown Can anyone explain to me why only contractors have to provide a breakdown of costs to the consumer? What is so different about our industry? Hardly a day goes by that we don't purchase goods or services. Where are the breakdowns for all of this? Most of the time the question is asked only because the prospect does not know what else to ask. It is normally a veiled request for what am I getting for my money?. The answer is a wonderful project built by us to these outstanding specifications in a timely manner. And we even clean up after ourselves. Our proposals outline what we will do, the materials specified, the standard of workmanship we will follow, allowances for certain HO chosen materials and a list of owner responsibilities. Our contract covers the payment schedule and time frame for the work. That is primarily the info most clients are really seeking, if only they knew how to ask. Educate them on what we will do for them, not what the contracts does for us. Good Luck Dave __________________ www.CookContractingLLC.com

01-25-2009, 01:51 PM	#91
RidgeWalker View Profile RidgeWalker Certified Crazy! Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (404) Photos (1) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Certified Crazy! Trade: Insurance Restoration Roofing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 404	Re: The Customer Wants A Breakdown Mike, Your response reminds of the person who's just about to tell a lie and the lie follows, "To be honest with you....". I mean no disrespect, but what I'm about to say is going to disprespect you. To me your post assumes that I'm a completely weak salesmen because I choose to provide a breakdown should a client request one. If that is the case that's fine, however it is far removed from the truth but I feel no need to prove anything to you about my abilities. I'm definetly not hear to bow to any ones feet to impress or gain respect. If I am right, your judging me based on a small portion of the overall relationship we have as contractors with our clients. That's ok too, it's your perogitive to do so. The statement you make about the 2 most important things to know in any business is either your opinion of the opinion of some one else that you believe it. I agree they are important but not the 2 most important. However I don't feel the need to disagree and debate that statement because you have your beliefs and I have mine. Trying to convince another business owner that he re-evaluate his position on a topic can be like pulling teeth in many cases. I don't bother with it. The OP asked for advice on what do to about the clients request. He didn't ask us to pound each other for having differant views about his question. I posted my opinion based on my experiance and that's it, I feel no need to knock how other people respond. You stated that I have a Huge misconception, by who's standard is it a misconception? Your's? If that's the case an I suppose to change everything I believe because your the established industry authority figure? I think not, and I no doubt believe that you are smart and successful in your business but I won't engender myself to you based on your responce to my views. __________________ Restore My Home Construction Atlanta Roofing Repair My SN Profile

01-25-2009, 02:33 PM	#92
A W Smith View Profile A W Smith Al Smith Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,392) Photos (20) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Al Smith Trade: Home Improvement contractor since 1983, In building field since 1974, Licensed Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: South River NJ Posts: 2,392	Re: The Customer Wants A Breakdown let me preface by saying that I have only read the fist page of this thread at this time. They want a breakdown? heres what you do, break out the phases of the job by trade or work division material and labor together (don't break them out) demo grade preparation and excavation foundation slab framing block out and or truss setting sheathing set man doors and windows garage door roofing siding grade and seed now this is very important. include a hidden set up and clean up charge for each one of these phases, the total itemized breakdown should go way above your contract bid Right about then your potential client should have their nervous breakdown that they wanted. the final line should be the discount for an all inclusive complete job which should be your original bid total. This will shut the client up, it will dissuade him from shopping the phases out as it will remove his "discount'. Explain to him that keeping the entire job under your control removes unknown variables and thats where the discount comes in. lets say he wants a door supplier of his own or goes the box store route. go back to the non discounted total for the entire job because he has just exposed you to an unknown element of risk and contingency. __________________ Al Smith http://www.awsmith.com

01-25-2009, 05:53 PM	#96
Brock View Profile Brock Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (893) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Residential Remodeler Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midwest Posts: 893	Re: The Customer Wants A Breakdown I'm taking the last word on this thread. It is officially closed....Good Day ...

01-26-2009, 08:09 AM	#98
Tscarborough View Profile Tscarborough Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (4,773) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Monkey Scratching Cat Herder Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Austin Posts: 4,773	Re: The Customer Wants A Breakdown Enumerating the materials is called "plans and specifications". No quantities need be given, just the products to be used. __________________ It ain't Rocket Science unless you are building rockets.

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The Customer Wants A Breakdown

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01-26-2009, 09:58 AM	#100
silvertree View Profile silvertree Certified Remodeler Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,207) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Certified Remodeler Trade: Kitchen bath remodeler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: North Oaks,MN Posts: 3,207	Re: The Customer Wants A Breakdown I hear good arguments for itemized or lump sum bids. I also agree sectioned bids are good. I don't believe anyone can convince me one is better, because like most things these bids are as good as you make them to be. No winner here in my opinion. I like lump sum, with a detailed scope and a materials list with the allowance. If your customers are picking the bid apart, communication got weak somewhere during the sales process. __________________ Vote for Pedro Kitchen, bath, St Paul remodeling Minneapolis Remodel Blog 203K Loan Consultant Minnesota

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