Copus and business size - Page 3 - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Shellbuilder · 07-03-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordo

Thanks Shell. Were you able to sell your company at a profit? Or did you absolve and start the new company?

I am trying to figure out if going big is worth the time invested or stay smaller making a good living with my sanity intact?

Personally, I would like to stay small and manage my profits in retirement.

As far as the competition you listed above all I am hearing is horror stories about 2 of the three. The complaints mainly revolve around customer service during the remodeling process which leads me to believe bigger is not better. Once you lose that bond with the client its hard to get back. That personal touch has got to be there on a continual basis. I definetly respect everybodys opinion here so thank you all.

I believe there is a limit to what you can make as a small operation with a couple employees working with their hands. On the other hand a couple of guys ramrodding jobs, securing subs, materials and dealing with the customer is different. Two really good carpenters and owner working sales and some site stuff, probably 150,000.00 a year for the owner, double that with the carpenter superntendent who can get the job done. I would also expect to pay them around 75,000.00 a year ( sounds low but that's southern Va.)
I hope nobody makes the mistake of building a remodel business to sell it one day. Being a remodelor makes it easy to be a landlord and that is where most of my wealth has been gotten and of course you can imagine what happened with my rental property portfolio's equity in the last 5 years, some has quadrupled.
It took me 8 years to grow a remodel company to a 3 mil a year company. I would guess around 250,000.00 start up money( showroom, trucks, equpiment, advertising) and the availability of 7 first class lead carpenters would make you the biggest and best if thats what you want.

Melissa · 07-04-2006, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

It is very possible, with the right reputation, image and sales presentation... then obviously delivering what you promise during your sales pitch. Melissa afer reading many of your posts, you seem to think it's impossible to make a good margin on your work. You must be doing something wrong IMO. I'm usually not the cheapest, and haven't been for years, yet we do ok. It's all about convincing the customer that you are worth what you are asking.

We are still gaining experience, so that's where a lot of my posts derive from. 3 1/2 yrs in the bz of kitch/bath and whole house remodeling and some other odds and ends- windows, etc. We’ve done approx 8 kitchens and 12 bath jobs (not incl some that weren’t complete remodels). Which range from very low end to very high end, so it's taking us some time to perfect our system, learning as we go and making mistakes as we go, some jobs have taken a lot longer due to running into situations that we haven't ever dealt with before. But our customers are always more than pleased. I'm sure once we've got it all down the profits will start turning out better and I'll be more used to it. Then I'll get real greedy!

I just got my (autographed) copy of Markup & Profit. It's the size of a textbook! I can't wait to read it!

Gordo · 07-04-2006, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shellbuilder

I believe there is a limit to what you can make as a small operation with a couple employees working with their hands. On the other hand a couple of guys ramrodding jobs, securing subs, materials and dealing with the customer is different. Two really good carpenters and owner working sales and some site stuff, probably 150,000.00 a year for the owner, double that with the carpenter superntendent who can get the job done. I would also expect to pay them around 75,000.00 a year ( sounds low but that's southern Va.)
I hope nobody makes the mistake of building a remodel business to sell it one day. Being a remodelor makes it easy to be a landlord and that is where most of my wealth has been gotten and of course you can imagine what happened with my rental property portfolio's equity in the last 5 years, some has quadrupled.
It took me 8 years to grow a remodel company to a 3 mil a year company. I would guess around 250,000.00 start up money( showroom, trucks, equpiment, advertising) and the availability of 7 first class lead carpenters would make you the biggest and best if thats what you want.

You know the numbers pretty well Shell. Finding 7 first class carps will take me until retirement to find.

. In reality they could be obtained, shoot they are everywhere. The key is in switching the mindset from I'll do it to coaching them to do it (and living with and correcting mistakes which I have little patience).

I can think of some better investments to do with that quarter mill. start up money. Thanks for the info.

pwrpapa · 07-04-2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordo

I can think of some better investments to do with that quarter mill. start up money. Thanks for the info.

I can think of a few myself.
When the Housing market takes a dump, I'm sure there will be alot more people finding better ways to invest their money.

Grumpy · 07-05-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwrpapa

What gets me is I thought I did have a fool proof method of catching crap like this, by sending out a person to remeasure everything before we cash the down payment check, order materials, and schedule the work.

Ok I acknowledge that the estimator is an idiot and now he's gone because of a drug problem. I acknolwedge the installer is/was a hack and he's gone as well. It doesn't suprise me at all that these guys both messed up; but what is shocking is that someone with years and years of expeirence, who is supposed to know what's going, would allow something like this to slip through.

HAHA, Grumpys fool proof system was to hire drug addicts an hacks.LOL

Yeah umm No you dote read further on in the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

but what is shocking is that someone with years and years of expeirence, who is supposed to know what's going, would allow something like this to slip through.

This is where the system failed. The person who does the double checking and inspections made a mistake. This person is not a drug addict or a hack. This person is still employed by me.

pwrpapa · 07-05-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Yeah umm No you dote read further on in the thread.
This is where the system failed. The person who does the double checking and inspections made a mistake. This person is not a drug addict or a hack. This person is still employed by me.

Grumpy,
I was havin a little fun with it. We all have been there. I'm glad your doing good.
Take care,
Pop's

**Double-A** · 07-05-2006, 03:41 PM

Corpus and Grumpy:

Keep the faith, I'm a 100 percent believer in your dreams with you. If you can get up in the morning, look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that today you're doing exactly what you want to be doing, then more power to you both.

I think of both of you as businessmen. You two are discussing a fineness of scale that doesn't really matter. Grump's point that if you can't take some time off from the business without it falling to ruin is valid. Every business should be self-sustaining (for a given amount of time) or its basic business model premise is seriously flawed.

Everyone is expendable, and I mean everyone. If your business can't run without you, then you might have the wrong horse hitched to your cart.

BUT, if you like the idea that your business is a one (or three) person show and is worthless without you, GOFERIT! You have nothing to lose but the pride of a job well done. Just be sure to charge what it really takes to do the job, not just win the bid. Take care of yourself, your family, your employees and your clients, in that order, and the rest will start to sort itself out with just a little loving attention.

If you were to ask me what the most important thing for anyone starting off in business to have is (besides a sense of humor), I'd say a mentor.

Someone that has been there, done that, and not only bought the t-shirt, but has had time to wear it out. This forum provides just that. A mentor ship and education that you can't get anywhere else.

Thanks for reading such a long-winded post.

specwood · 07-05-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Yeah umm No you dote read further on in the thread.
This is where the system failed. The person who does the double checking and inspections made a mistake. This person is not a drug addict or a hack. This person is still employed by me.

Dote is a verb.

I think you meant he is a dolt acting in a dote manner.

All in fun you know...

Grumpy · 07-06-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by specwood

Dote is a verb.

I think you meant he is a dolt acting in a dote manner.

All in fun you know...

Perhaps you are right. It's the first time I actually used the word. My initial reaction was much harsher, so I chose a more toned down descriptive. Eh perhaps I over-reacted by name calling, however his comment made my blood boil. Insulting my business is like insulting my baby.

copusbuilder · 07-06-2006, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-A

Corpus and Grumpy:

Keep the faith, I'm a 100 percent believer in your dreams with you. If you can get up in the morning, look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that today you're doing exactly what you want to be doing, then more power to you both.

I think of both of you as businessmen. You two are discussing a fineness of scale that doesn't really matter. Grump's point that if you can't take some time off from the business without it falling to ruin is valid. Every business should be self-sustaining (for a given amount of time) or its basic business model premise is seriously flawed.

Everyone is expendable, and I mean everyone. If your business can't run without you, then you might have the wrong horse hitched to your cart.

BUT, if you like the idea that your business is a one (or three) person show and is worthless without you, GOFERIT! You have nothing to lose but the pride of a job well done. Just be sure to charge what it really takes to do the job, not just win the bid. Take care of yourself, your family, your employees and your clients, in that order, and the rest will start to sort itself out with just a little loving attention.

If you were to ask me what the most important thing for anyone starting off in business to have is (besides a sense of humor), I'd say a mentor.

Someone that has been there, done that, and not only bought the t-shirt, but has had time to wear it out. This forum provides just that. A mentor ship and education that you can't get anywhere else.

Thanks for reading such a long-winded post.

True to a large degree.

My business was large and extremely successful (if winning trips and coats is success) and even more stressful. I took my business over my family.
I have since structured it to fit my needs. I have taken many 3 week vacations. I have been clearing land for the past 3 days with an occasional phone check. Would my business die without me....Sure it would, but I am living a whole other life in the meantime. I am building a series of vacation rentals and may just shut Houston down with time?

Will I feel a pang if I do? Hell no.....It has been a service to people that they will get elsewhere.
Could I sell it?....Probably, but I don't need to! It has served it's purpose.

Looking at Grumpy getting all stressed and using certain words for the first time and referring to his business as his baby.....Well, That just isn't healthy

But...to each his own

Grumpy · 07-06-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copusbuilder

referring to his business as his baby.....Well, That just isn't healthy

I can't see why it isn't healthy. I think it's the purest form of... hmm what's the word? I want to say "love" but that isn't quite right. I have put who I am into this business. I have started this business with everything that was mine. I have so far done everything my way, and I have really really really tried very very very hard to do things the right way. I take pride in that.

This is MY business, and for those that don't think business is personal, I don't think they take it seriously enough. Ultimately it is MY name and MY reputation on the line. How can I not take that personally?

In terms of not selling your business?

to me that equates throwing money down the toilet. Jeeez at least sell it and donate the money or something. Just disolving, why?

Mike Finley · 07-06-2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Ultimately it is MY name and MY reputation on the line. How can I not take that personally?

Two of the words you used in the above sentence are the reason not to worry about it "on line". This is the Internet, it isn't real life. I wouldn't get too worked up what some anonymous, ethereal, nobody who calls himself bigboy392 or supersusan922 thinks about you.

copusbuilder · 07-07-2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

In terms of not selling your business?

to me that equates throwing money down the toilet. Jeeez at least sell it and donate the money or something. Just disolving, why?

Then I would have to go to Houston for many days and help in the transition. It would take a lot more than money to get me to do that

Grumpy · 07-07-2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Two of the words you used in the above sentence are the reason not to worry about it "on line". This is the Internet, it isn't real life. I wouldn't get too worked up what some anonymous, ethereal, nobody who calls himself bigboy392 or supersusan922 thinks about you.

I didn't say ON LINE I said "on the line" as if to say my neck is on the line. Or to paraphrase, the reputation of my business reflects directly into my own personal reputation.

I understand what you are saying though Mike. However being that I am "grumpy" it takes very very little to set me off.

Grumpy · 07-07-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copusbuilder

Then I would have to go to Houston for many days and help in the transition. It would take a lot more than money to get me to do that

A lawyer and broker could handle the whole transaction for you I could imagine. Sure they'd take a cut, but let's see 30% of some number is a lot more than 100% of zero.

dee · 10-06-2007, 12:12 AM

grumpy, i wish you well in growth, but in my case, i was told that bigger is not always better. true. we grew & grew, profits went down, headaches increased, ulcers arrived, and now have downsized & cleaned house, and trying to get to the right size for good profits. dee p.s. by the way we are a very small plg. & hvac co in midwest, leveling out now from downsizing & changing from new residential and service to only service & retrofits, giving up new construction mechanicals completely.

copusbuilder · 10-06-2007, 09:09 AM

An old thread revived

Interestingly enough we are working on vacation rental 2 with 3 around the corner.
I have managed to make a paycheck off my Houston business with little more than a trip in town once a week or two, some paperwork and a few phone calls.

If I was imersed deeply in my construction business I wouled likely increase profits but I would never have the oppurtunity to build and remodel vacation renatls.....The salary from these will dwarf anything I could make in the trades..

I have said it before and will say it again....think outside the box...make your business work for you!!

I have nothing to gain from preaching this strategy. Give it some thought. Can you do things to your business that will make your life "better" in the long run.

copusbuilder · 10-06-2007, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dee

grumpy, i wish you well in growth, but in my case, i was told that bigger is not always better. true. we grew & grew, profits went down, headaches increased, ulcers arrived, and now have downsized & cleaned house, and trying to get to the right size for good profits. dee p.s. by the way we are a very small plg. & hvac co in midwest, leveling out now from downsizing & changing from new residential and service to only service & retrofits, giving up new construction mechanicals completely.

It sounds like you are doing this by choice? I commend you

There are those here that will equate downsizing with sales failure, improper handling of business, no business education....poor bastards don't stand a chance

I found when "my awakeing" came that 90% of my problems were from 10% of my clientele. I got rid of them,,,I didn't try to reshape them. I fired them.
If you have something in life that bothers you, get rid of it!

dirt diggler · 10-06-2007, 09:34 AM

wow, this is actually a really good, useful thread.

dirt diggler · 10-06-2007, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copusbuilder

I found when "my awakeing" came that 90% of my problems were from 10% of my clientele. I got rid of them,,,I didn't try to reshape them. I fired them.
If you have something in life that bothers you, get rid of it!