Contractors Getting The Raw Deals?

arnldmtman

OK, Here is my current nightmare! Get plans for a COMPLETE remodel-addition, from Architect-Designer-Homeowners friend-IDIOT! I bid from the plans, get the job start the foundation, and find out the existing house is 4' longer than plan shows. Architect who is also representing owner says "oh that can't be very much extra" All Simpson hardware and beam collectors specked on plans need to be custom fabricated, Designs and specifications throughout plans contradict each other, Framing, Electrical, Plumbing, HVAC design and specifications will not work. Takes architect weeks to respond to my e-mails to resolve problems. I ask for finish specifications months in advance, never received answers. Home owner owes $40,000.00 in changes due to architect's screw-ups and wont pay. I pulled off project and hired an attorney.

maj

But everything worked out on paper!!!!

I've always believed that architects/designers should be required to have a minimum 10 years in the field.....to gain that real world experience.

theworx

We find errors on almost every set of drawings we receive. Doesn't matter if it's a designer, architect or engineer. In this case (because you're doing an addition on an existing structure) I think I personally would have taken site measurements. Not trying to say anything against you (most of us are very busy and we should be able to trust an architect to be able to measure properly). But, I always try to make it down to the site and take my own measurements before I start the bidding and especially before I start ordering custom built items (in my case would be millwork,etc...). Hope you come out of this one OK!!!

theworx

I've always believed that architects/designers should be required to have a minimum 10 years in the field.....to gain that real world experience.[/QUOTE]

I agree they should at least have to spend some time on a couple of job sites to see how their work impacts what really happens. It would only take a day or two of seeing trades people complain about how inaccurate drawings are and how we struggle to make it work. Might make them be a little more careful with their "Fisher Price" tape measure. They should also be accountable for their errors. So many times we, as contractors, have to eat the cost of extra time spent having to figure out how to make things right (when you've followed the drawings and they are wrong)!! We pay for our mistakes and they should too!!

arnldmtman

Here's the thing, I live 160 miles from the job, but I do have a cabin 10 minutes away from this project. I have in the past built in the area for myself. When the architect contacted me, I was not working in the area. After receiving the plans I did make a site visit but didn’t pull a tape, my mistake. The thing is it wasn’t only the error of the 4' but almost every detail, S sheets, Elevations, roof framing etc. wont work and need to be revised. Here I am 160 miles away and I can’t get answers and when I do it takes weeks. The home owners don't want to here how screwed up their plans are because the architect is their friend. When I contact the architect with design errors at first he refuses to accept them and when he finally does, he wants me to send him a drawing to how I think the problem could be corrected. I could go on and on but this job exhausts me.

N.E.Bldg&Rest.LLC

Every time I see your avatar It freeks me out

__________________
"Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all."

Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

Sonny Lykos

I’ve been a contractor for about 34 years, and have been screwed many times.

However, I never blamed any of my customers or subs. Not once! I blamed myself for each and every incident.

I’ll explain why. I used to think using a “tradesman mentality.” I soon learned to use a “business owner mentality.” That change did the trick. And one of the “tricks” was to always - ALWAYS - have exceptional working capital. That means cash, or monies readily accessible to me.

I started thinking like a credit card lender, bank, of other formal lender. Does anyone here think that any of the above would change even one word of their “application” or contract because a “customer” requested it, or balked at it? Think about it.

I started using terminology in our contracts that did NOT state that “X’ was due upon completion of “Y” phase, but instead, that “Z” phase would not be started until “X” was paid for, for phase “Y”. I got the idea from another contractor whose contract said: “Phase 1 is completed and therefore “$” is now due. We will begin work on the phase 2 upon receipt of “$”. Simple. Clean. Concise. Clear. That eliminated “The check is in the mail” crap. It eliminated ALL crap and excuses. In other words, from this day on, all work is terminated until I get paid, per the contract.

Change Orders were written for everything - EVERYTHING, and signed for. And most were paid for IN ADVANCE - or they did not get done.

Any and all discrepancies were clarified, on paper, BEFORE work resumed. Let me repeat: BEFORE work resumed.

It's called: The game playing stops here, and now!

None of the above can be done without having very good working capital and good cash flow. And that cannot be done with a tradesman mentality. It will only be done via a business owner mentality.

I learned what I knew (but ignored) at age 10 - that there are many $#@(*^% in the world as buying members of the public. And contractors are also buying members of the public. I finally started addressing that reality. In short - I got smart! I also stopped being dependent upon customers or subs, but set myself up so that “they” became dependent upon “me.”

Finally, I started making money - a lot of money.

Now, at age 64, I can only try to assist my peers to learn the above earlier on.

BTW, I only worked with one architect; that was about 18 years ago, and I swore I’d never do it again, and haven’t. My reason? I also learned that when one builds “prototypes”, which is what we really do whether it’s a new house, a factory, or a remodel, one person, and only one person, must be in control if HE is to assume responsibility for everything, and that one person MUST be the GC - not an architect. IMO, the architect is nothing more than one more “subcontractor.” Egos do not build. We do!

So acknowledge that there are azzholes and bast*rds in the world and address them all, as a business owner. When I sold my remodeling business to my sons I told them to treat every customer like family, but write your contracts as though every single one of them was out to screw you, and big time.

Think not? Read the entire application for a Visa card, or get a mortgage or loan application to finance a truck and read it thoroughly.

Or try to “repossess” a framing, plumbing or roof of a house or remodeled kitchen.

Teetorbilt

Hooray for Sonny L! Another old guy that learned the ropes the hard way (actually has a few years on me). Earning your PHD here takes more than just schoolin' and you pay well for it too.

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You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

Albert Einstein

Sonny Lykos

A real hard way. I also file bankruptcy back in '81. Even that I immediately accepted as my fault, not someone else's. I pointed the finger at myself. And that was when I learned to save money from each job, even if it was only 5%, and let it build up so I would never again be without working capital, or just continue buying trucks and tools while the economy was good as I did back then, and when interest rates went up to 21%, and jobs dried up within 3 months, and I had 13 guys in the field.

I took me about 7 years to pay everyone off. Seven years of working six days a week while, with my wife, raising (trying too) four kids and rebuild my credit. And that didn't include the humiliation and acknowledgment of the fact that I was 1) a lousy provider, and 2) a terrible business man.

"Sorry Honey and kids. Your husband and Dad is an azzhole! And about as big as they get."

Our biggest enemy is not other contractors or customers or suppliers or architects. It's our own egos. So I throw mine overboard years ago.

N.E.Bldg&Rest.LLC

Sonny

Every time I read one of your post I feel like I'm Infused with a decades worth of your knowledge, Thanks for helping out the younger less experienced guys

__________________
"Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all."

Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

Tscarborough

The biggest impediment to good business is ego.

Teetorbilt

Sonny, you're old enough to have run into my 'Uncle Ralph', the inventor of the Speedostat, AKA 'Cruise Control'. Ever meet him?

__________________
You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

Albert Einstein

Sonny Lykos

Not yet, but I've still got a few years to still meet him.

Patty

I commend you, Sonny. You sound like a real honorable man.

We could all learn something from you.

Sonny Lykos

Thanks, Patti, and the rest of you.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think I mispoke about throwing my ego overboard. Instead of throwing it overboard, I think what I did was give it a new direction or energy - away from me and toward others. That was to do whatever it took to get others to depend upon me instead of the opposite. I guess that's part of "branding" oneself. To make what our name represents becomes in such demand, that others come, presold, to you, instead of you having to sell yourself to others.

So my ego was never again to be used as a form of instant gratification for myself. But instead, to reach a goal, and a goal I had no idea as to when to expect it’s realization, because even that, would not happen in any given day, but gradually develop over time.

So my ego was to become the vehicle from which I would travel in my journey. And it did happen. And that was when my ego then transformed itself into a sense of making me a humble. And when I became a humble person, it was due to my decision of taking a phrase from Rush Limbaugh. While I have always tried to live by the Golden Rule, I began saying to myself, and occasionally to customers who complimented me, that although I’ve never been a church goer, “I had talent on loan from God.” And I still think that way today.

I serve others, not myself. Zig Ziglar says in one of his books, that if you help enough other people get what they want out of life, you will get what you want out of life. It’s true. Just assure you don't have just "good" contracts, but damn good contracts and company procedures - on paper - you do not violate. You own a business, and businesses cannot be operated cavalierly, because they determine your life, and the lives of you family. In other words, take control - of everything possible, including the policies of your company that are delegated to others. Remember "Brand Harmony."

asbestos

1. work for someone that you think is unpleasent (nice way of saying an azzhole)
2. Work for a real estate agent (see #1)
3. Work on at hights without fall protection
4 be a clumsey oaf and drop a $1200 part on a $500 job.
5. buy cheap Chinese tools.
6. work for some rich person who cries poor all the time, they will never stop tring to squeeze the smallest bit of free work out of you.

realpurty2

One problem we had early on was while dealing with a Facilities Management Group. They contracted us to do some structural repairs on some damaged celltowers. Our contract and payment terms were well laid out in writing. They too had their own terms and conditions we had to agree to. The only variation from our standard practice was the payment terms they required was Net 30. Still wet behind the ears, we didn't mind waiting 30 days for payment and accepted the terms. We purchased materials, did the work, even had a client requested change order that involved a great deal more labor and materials. The invoice went in and we waited...and we waited..and we waited. On day 35, I placed the first call. I was informed at that time, someone had erroneously placed our account on a Net 45 instead of 30 but they would fix it instantly. Back to waiting. Day 50 rolled around, 2nd call made.. I'm informed at that time the Net 30 doesn't begin until they close out the work order on their end, not from the day of our invoice. Their work orders were not closed out until ALL work was complete, even other subcontractors who performed the asphalt repairs on the driveway etc. AND the actual client/owners of the cell towers had paid their bill. Not only did we have to wait until the entire project was finished in every way, but we also had to wait for the Facilities Management Group to collect their money before they would pay us. It ended up taking over 6 mths to get paid what we thought was a Net 30 job.

Not sure where it ranks on the top 10 list of ways to get scr*wed, but it sure hit No.1 on the "P*ssed me off" scale.

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Woman in a Man's World.

Gordo

Thanks for the wisdom everyone. I wish we had more seasoned veterans on board to coach the younger guys. I have been blessed to learn from an early age from my grandpa (who taught me my hand skills), my plumbers (both over 70 and still working---they have taught me skills in the field), and my mom (she taught me financial responsibility).

Financial responsibilty is the key to success in contracting and it cannot be understated. Run your business like a business.

Sonny, I look forward to hearing more of your wisdom.

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Looks like some pros were here.

Gordo

He wants you to do his job? Not gonna happen unless you are compensated first for the forty large. Then you need to be paid a "design/correction fee" for your architect fups. Sounds like you are the fall guy. It also sounds like they are not to concerned with time frames so it might be in your best interest to commit to other jobs. Hope it all works out.

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Looks like some pros were here.

arnldmtman

Sonny,
Thanks for all the great info! I'm 46 working in the trades since 1980, but when you think you have crossed every bridge out their a longer one comes along. Your comments on your business practices has opened up my eyes and I am revising my contracts as we speak.
Thanks again to you and all the others sharing their experiences. This is such a great site!