Considering Going Union..Opinions?

Mud Master

Hey all,

It's been awhile, just been so busy with projects.

So I have been contemplating joining the Union. With the work load steadily increasing, the thought of a skilled pool of labor to pull from when I need it has made me think hard about joining up as a contractor.

I know the Union is not what it used to be, and to be honest I was anti-union for a long time, mostly because I always saw and heard the ugly side. I am not too turned on about the annual fee to be a contractor in the union, but if that money will make me money, than so be it.

My employees are torn, as some welcome the idea and others specifically state that they would not join up. Though I could always keep men on in an open shop divison (which is allowed, though I didn't know that til' talking with a rep), the more support I have the better. I do not want to alienante some of my skilled & dedicated workers. I have a very good benefit package & wages above industry standards, and I do that to attract and retain compotent & reliable men.

So before I start rambling, can anyone give me any insight into the pro's/con's? Any and all opinions, suggestions, thoughts, advice, etc..will be appreciated.

Thanks All!!

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Zendik

Where are you at?

Union workers vary state to state. I've worked in Calif, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington unions which seemed to be the best. Midwest I'm not to sure about though...

If you can do it I say go for it. I couldn't imagine any employees not wanting to go union. Retirement, Vacation, Medical! Unless they are afraid of being replaced by higher skilled workers.

cburke501

Our company has a union commercial division and its worked out for us in NJ. A few years ago we tried to go union in residential, which unfortunately is very difficult with so many non union and unqualified contractors around giving 'going out of business' prices.

The union helps us out a lot in the commerial end, not only because we have a pool of skilled workers to pull from, but also because the union puts our name out to GC's looking for union carpentry contractors. We've gotten most of our recent work that way.

I would say the downsides are the additional overhead (filing forms with the union, keeping track of benefit payments), and also the increased unemployment liability. Since we use a large amount of guys for a short period on many jobs, when those workers get laid off we're listed as one of their employers any time they go out on unemployment for the next 18 months. Its not a big deal, but it can raise your unemployment percentage in your payroll over time.

One other thing, if you already have employees who want to 'go union', you have to ask your local hall what the ratio is for those empoyees. I know our hall likes to have 2 of their guys for every 1 of our hired employees on a job, especially when they have guys sitting on the bench.

Overall though, we are very happy with union labor and it has allowed us to grow succesfully.

Ed the Roofer

Get that agreement in writing. There are ways to operate 2 separate classifications of Union and Non-Union business entities, but their is a very thin line to be crossed which would expose the Non-Union Open Shop also know as a Merit Shop to being proclaimed as "Double Breasted".

If they want to charge you with running a Double-Breasted organization, the Non-Union entity would have to pay all back charges according to the Union Company's Agreement upon their subpoena to Audit those books.

Ed

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Snow Man

Here is one reason I pulled out of DC21 local 345.

Im sitting home laid off in early oct 1992 , I get a phone call from a brother
claiming DC21 is accepting new cards for a weeks wage at the time was approx. $ 800.00.

The best part of it was the guys who bought their way in weren't even painters let alone mechanics and started working that week. FAIR??

So I sit home and collect half my pay while the ba is selling cards.

So be careful what your doing

F******* JoKE.

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G&S23

I would have thought that Baltimore commercial contractors were union, well you learn something new everyday. ALL public work here is prevailing wage and most larger private work follows the same course.

It is true that the unions are less than perfect but untill an accepted, viable pool of labor becomes available, union is the way to go. Another thing, when you go up against your competitors and they're signatory to the union, you at least have a fighting chance to get an award.

Al Taper

Hey give it a shot what do you have to lose. If anything i know the union rep help give out your #to gc.

Jason Whipple

Be careful! While they claim that they have a pool of qualified labor for you to use, they may not be qualified in your work but it falls under "carpenter"

I did a lot of commercial interior work and was in the Union for a short while. The guys they sent out to do ceiling work were pathetic! I think they had two good guys and the rest were horribly slow. MAYBE did 300 sf of grid per day, and this was a wal-mart ceiling!!!!

You'll find them sending out guys that do mostly form framing or stick framing if that's all they have to send you and they are still doing what they said they would do (if you read the fine print).

Good luck, and again, be careful!

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Grumpy

The hall bums (the guys sitting around waiting to be called up) are usually the least skilled. Just because you are union doesn't mean you are skilled, it means you pay your monetary dues.

Around here unless you specialize in commercial new construction, you are not union. For me I dislike most builders and how most builders treat their subs like disposable tools... therefore I do very little new work.


My only advice if you do choose to do it, start a second company since there is usually a contractual clause that once you go union you can never go back. Another word of advice, most union shops I know also own seperate "open" shops. Scab labor is still very sought after.

G&S23

Although scab is a little condescending to a non-union person or company, however I have personally seen some non-union work that was very well crafted & thurough. Typically, (not all) non-union jobs are on the smaller scale because there is no pool of labor to draw from. Believe me, I am not sticking up for unions, but they do have a purpose and as pointed out, a person (we have women too) from the hall can be an unqualified piece of s**t and your stuck with it for at least a day.

The unions are done in the resi market and barely holding on in the light to medium commercial stuff. IMHO, the industrial work, roadwork and heavy commercial (high rises, hospitals, schools etc) are the last bastion for those guys, and most of the remaining to a union/non-union mix.

One thing to consider, the trades do have a 4-5 year apprentice/school program that does lend itself to producing a pretty good man at the end of their apprenticeship. There's always the horror stories, but if your nephew needs a job for the summer I highly doubt the BA will hang your balls on something like that

Good Luck Mud

Grumpy

I'm proudly a scab or rat or what ever non union name you want to call me. There are hacks and craftsmen on both sides of the union fence.

Around here you can buy your card without an apprenticeship.

concretemasonry

The question of union or non-union is more of a business/financial decision and not an emotional one. This applies to both individuals and companies. both can go double-vested.

I know of many union members that take a withdrawal/leave from the union and work non-union in the busy season to make more money on piecework than working for the union wage. - You have to be good and valuable to do that.

The unions gladly accepted that because it was an opportunity to get new members during the busy season that may be around in the future.It emptied the benches and opened up the recruiting programs that the regular union memebrs usually resented. - It is just a business, no matter what side you are on.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

Brickie

That's right. Nothing like pricing themselves out of the market


Same here.


That's right. In fact, there are a lot of us that used to be in the union back in the day & have moved on to more profitable ventures

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Snow Man

Presently, the democratic party is trying to pass a NEW law for private contractors.

The NEW law will require that all 1099 er's go union.

Meaning , most ma n pa companies will have to fold.

This is a ploy for the democratic vote only.

I have not researched this enough to make a sound comment.

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busaboysz

hey hows the work in hawaii? if going good or need help send me a email or a call. nathan_ceravolo@live.com (702)-743-8496 please reply very interested. been off for a while here really slow. been carpenter for 15yrs and know what i'm doing i'm worth what i make.been threw app. program many years ago.looking for union work any where right now. thanks nathan

Union workers vary state to state. I've worked in Calif, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington unions which seemed to be the best. Midwest I'm not to sure about though...

If you can do it I say go for it. I couldn't imagine any employees not wanting to go union. Retirement, Vacation, Medical! Unless they are afraid of being replaced by higher skilled workers.[/quote]

BattleRidge

**** the union. Most of the skilled workers I know from the union were less then impressive and think they are worth an arm and a leg.
Not much different then the auto industry, the unions more then half the problem. They are outdated and overpriced. I think people should find their own jobs and stick up for themselves. YOU SAID WHATS YOUR OPINION.

Mud Master

Thanks for the replies!!

I know it's been what, almost 6 months since I posted this but I appreciate everyone's response!

I never did sign an agreement with the local. Our union is just to weak here and I don't want anyone telling me who can and can't work, who is gonna make what & if i can't take a certain type of job..if I wanted that I would have never went in business!

I agree that the unions do help you find work, as is evident by my union competitiors always seeming to find some project that was hidden in a dark alley that none of us knew was up for bidding. However, I work for some very good, steady GC's, and until this economy blows either them or me over, I won't need that help.

Thanks again and anymore responses are always appreciated!!!!

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Tom Struble

When a non union guy works on a union job hes a scab when a union guy works on his buddies job for cash hes just a guy trying to make a living.
I Gladly stand with my scab friends here

Schmidt & Co

How is "side work" looked at by the union? Every union painter I ever met always did side jobs. I assume they set up a union company for themselves with all the bennies and overhead?

RenaissanceR

[deleted]

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