Chicken Or The Egg

Ray R

Which comes first?

Selling enough jobs to warrant hiring and running the risk of not finding qualified help and ruining your reputation OR

Hiring first and trying to sell enough to keep the help busy.

I would really like to hear from companies that started as solo operations and now have crews handling the production end of things while the owner now runs the business end.

Thanks,

__________________
Ray Ramelli

http://www.ramellibandr.com
http://www.millrivercabinetry.com

ProWallGuy

Good question Ray. I learned way back that if you grow too fast, you are in trouble. When I first started, I got big way too quick, before good systems, or checks & balances were in place. It quickly became a stressful nightmare with just too many fires to put out. I pretty much let it fall apart, and became a 1-3 man show again. I know now if I choose to expand, it must be done slowly and controlled. Instead of letting the bronco take me for a ride, tame the horse and take it for a ride.

I would say book the work until your present work force is at it's breaking point. Hit critical mass and then hire 1 more person to bring it back into a comfortable range. Then again build up the schedule/workload until you get tired of working overtime/weekends to get it done, and hire again. Slow but steady is the way. All just MHO.

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Wallpaper Hanger St. Louis
Digital Murals Installation

AtlanticWBConst

You should only have the number of jobs going and only using the number of people ------ That you will be able to MANAGE COMFORTABLY - with MINUMAL STRESS.
Also, remember, that at the same time that your jobs are going on, you will need the time to meet with customers, spec. out future jobs, get the various paperwork done, etc.

Back in the early 80's we started out with 2 guys - My biz. Patner and I. That was it. Then we hired a helper. 3 of us. Then we hired our first 'crew' (2-3 guys to send out). Then we hired a 2nd 'crew'.
So with 2 crews we started to grow. I managed one, he managed the other. Then we hired 2 more 'crews' - that's when things started to get stressful. Crew # 1 started 'slipping' in their work. I started to have to do the fix ups when I was supposed to be elsewhere. Eventually the SHTF - and we got rid of them. (They were all hanging around together drinking and smoking pot all night long)

We eventually found other help...GOOD help.
The key for us was to:

#1.) Get your licensing, registering, legalizing, insurance and LLC/INC. - ( these all can also serve to protect you)
a.) Get the jobs
b.) Develop and train the RIGHT kind of help for those jobs - (dependable & responsible - eager to learn).
c.) Sort that help out to find a good foreman. (We ended up hiring one)
As you grow, you need help managing. You cannot do it all yourself.
d.) Get more large contracts.
e.) Hire more GOOD help.
f.) Hire a support staff (Office & Paperwork) - Aren't wives great?

Last- Maintain a high level of quality and communication with your customers & Don't get trapped behind a desk.

Anyhow - we went through alot of ups and downs in terms of growing pains to realize that the problems that seemed to pop up always revolved around bad & unreliable HELP.

We have enough good help now to keep them all busy. If ALOT of additional work rolls in (like it is doing now) - we also use subs. (We have sifted carefully through subs until we find the ones that are the right fit for our company)
We only hire additional 'in-house' help if we have alot of future work lined up for them...

-my 2 cents -

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- Build Well -

copusbuilder

Maybe if you can find some good subs to help when things get overloaded?? Might not make as much but don't have to keep them busy....Of course the key word was good? This is hard with employees or subs in my experience...Or perhaps Texas is just full of Morons

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www.copusconstruction.com
www.etexasrentals.com
www.thelakevoice.com
AkA Richard Cranium

AtlanticWBConst

Nope, we've got some too, I guess some of them migrated up here a few years back.....a good sized colony is growing and spreading now.

__________________
- Build Well -

copusbuilder

Yeh, I'm afraid it's universal. Hell I am seeing signs of slipping that way myself

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www.copusconstruction.com
www.etexasrentals.com
www.thelakevoice.com
AkA Richard Cranium

Peladu

This option will just break the bank for you. Hire as you go and fire as you go. Just don't get sloppy with your business because then your help will do the same with their work. Follow me?

Mike Finley

Always the first option, unless you have very deep pockets.

There is only one thing you can do going the other way, which is lose money as it takes you 4 times as long to find enough work then you thought it would, with the first option you can always schedule people out until they start saying no, or raise your prices till they start saying no.

cssconstruct

We narrowed our subs down to the one's that did the best work for us. As our work for other builders started to grow, we started asking these crews one by one if they would be willing to take a chance and come work for us. We first put on our own painting crews, then framers, and then drywallers. We still sub out roofing, brick, block. It is a big change when you suddenly have more employees. You go from wondering how you are going to get all your work done, to how do I keep enough work. I now spend more time lining up the next job instead of building our houses, but the rewards have also been very nice. You just have to decide if the extra headaches are going to be worth it to you.

AtlanticWBConst

My Observation:

There area ALWAYS headaches in ANY job at ANY level. Whether you work for yourself or work for someone else, there are good days and bad days...

The plus side in MHO is: That the headaches you suffer are for YOU - not for someone you are working hard for, who doesn't fully appreciate how hard you are working and is making alot of money from your blood, sweat, and rears. (not a Typo)

YOU directly benefit from your hardwork, and not someone else.

- 2 cents -

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- Build Well -

Ray R

OK, selling jobs is first. Right now, I am way behind in my schedule and to have to make time to interview and hire would be almost impossible.

I am stuck in bad place. I want to grow my business, but am locked into the daily production work. If I take time to grow my business, it feels like my business will suffer.

__________________
Ray Ramelli

http://www.ramellibandr.com
http://www.millrivercabinetry.com

copusbuilder

I think you may have misread his post. I believe he was referring to growth and having more crews?

__________________
www.copusconstruction.com
www.etexasrentals.com
www.thelakevoice.com
AkA Richard Cranium

cssconstruct

Correct Copus,
We started out as a general contracting company that subbed out the building of our own homes . As we grew in that market we started narrowing down our subs to the ones we would wait for on a house if they were backed up a week or two. During this time we became project managers for several gc's here in town. They did not have good people doing work for them. This provided us an opportunity to provide more work for our subs, and then to later hire them as our own employees. This meant that I not only had to keep our houses going, and the other gc's who we manage going, I also have to continually find other framing, drywall and painting jobs. I try to keep all our houses where my guys can go from one to the next, but sometimes that is not possible. The headache that I have added is the trying to figure out when my guys are available, or estimate where I am going to have gaps in the schedule that have to be filled. I was just trying to point out how as you grow the types of problems change and you have to decide if these problems are worth the reward for you. We have all different types and sizes of trades here on the site. Some guys happy being small, and others who want to grow and grow. You just have to decide in which direction you want to go.

copusbuilder

Very well said. Filling holes is tough and carrying dead weight is tougher. I had gone throught that and to me it wasn't worth it.
Sleepless nights and no time for family wern't for me.
I kept the good and got rid of the bad and have been happier since.
But most know my views on the hazards of growth...
Best of luck to you

__________________
www.copusconstruction.com
www.etexasrentals.com
www.thelakevoice.com
AkA Richard Cranium

Double-A

If you're too busy to make time, then you're not managing your time, its managing you.

You can't tell me you don't have 15mins to meet someone at the coffee shop at 5:30 for an interview. Nor can you tell me that you're too busy to meet with someone on Sunday night at the local waffle shop.

My point is this. Manage your life or your life will manage you. Don't "make" time, set it aside.

Your schedule should be your "unbreakable bond" to yourself. If you're the chief, and you tell someone (a client) you'll be someplace and are late, you've set yourself one step lower on the ladder. You just passed the power to them.

As for hiring before you have the work, bad idea. Only time I would suggest this is to snag a great craftsman. Otherwise, get them as you need them, pay them a living wage and they will be loyal to you.