Bids, Quotes, Proposals....

TonyD

I was watch flip this house this weekend and an "invester" hired a "GC" to fix up the place, they walk around the house for what seemed like fifteen minutes and they were able to settle with a price of about $10,000. I can't even price a $250.00 job without sleeping on it. Does everyone else give a standard 1 or 2 days, or is anyone good enough to go out to their truck for 5 minutes and write up a quote? of so...

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RobertCDF

For my regular decks, if nothing is really out of the ordinary I can price right away. (Standard being: Correct Deck composite, HFS, 90 degree install, CD rails, deckorators balusters, standard stairs) I have SQ FT price upgrades for certain things like to do 45 degree install I know how much to add. But when someone wants something diff I have to take a few days.

I bet that the GC came in a few days before and looked the thing over before the taping of the show. Then he just acted like he had never met the investor.

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Peladu

Yea, I actually try my arse off to come up with an estimated number right there: "Mrs. Jones this is going to be around $25,000, is that close to what you have planned." If they look like they just saw a ghost, there's no need to write up a formal proposal. See what I mean. If you have done projects close to the size you are now looking at, you should kinda know your ballpark. I try to eliminate paperwork, so I shoot them an estimate and if they seem to be still in the game I will take a couple two three days with the prop.


FWIW, don;t believe everything you see on TV

TonyD

on that same note, does anyone throw numbers out while talking to future clients? any luck? .. like"probably $1000 for that $750 for THAT" I find myself close to doing that sometimes and it probably is not good.

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Grumpy

Depends on the size of a job and if I've done it before. Shingle roofs I can price in under 5 minutes. Vinyl siding the same thing. Fibercement and cedar siding may take me 15 minutes. Flat roofs I can often times price in my head.

Anything custom, unusual, or I've never done before may take me days to price.

Stone Mountain

Not long ago I priced a large reno job. I am of course a deck contractor, so we don't do many renos, but all me guys are capable.
I sat and struggled for hours (maybe 10 in total), went on a walktrhough at Home Depost, made up a spreadsheet, talked to my men, and eventually arrived at a price of $210,000.00. At this moment I am apparently the favourite, but the client hasn't yet decided.
I took the plans to my brother, who IS a GC. It took him literally 15 minutes. He scribbled down something linke this :
demo, oh, about $3000, kitchen $8000, floors ***, and so on. In LESS THAN 15 minutes, he said to me (And I hadn't given him my estimate) that HE would charge about $210,000.00 !!!
So, yes, some people can estimate more easily than others.

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rino1494

Depends on the size of the job. Small jobs I can give a close estimate and bigger ones I need to sit down and think about it. Some jobs take weeks to bid.

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Double-A

The problem with just 'tossing' out numbers is that you don't know what you don't know.

If you don't know what the true price of materials are, then why are you going to toss out numbers as if you do? Sure you can fudge the numbers some, but what do you do when you've tossed out $25,000 and your estimate comes in at $28,500? That is more than 10%. In some cases, that is your total profit.

I follow the advice of folks like Michael Stone and Ellen Rohr. Know your numbers or shut the hell up. Get a written quotation for all material over a certain dollar amount.

One other problem is, what have you forgotten? Our rule is two people always look over an estimate before it goes to the client to be sure we haven't forgotten anything. We almost always find something that is forgotten on the bigger quotes. Permit fees, hauling and dump fees, port-o-potties, etc. The smaller ones not so much.

This is a complicated business. Do you homework and you won't regret it.

As for tossing out numbers to get a feel for where the client is on budget, I prefer a more direct approach;
"What is your budget for this project?"

Works like a charm.

As for the GC that can sit down and prepare the estimate in 15 minutes, sounds to me like he knows his numbers well. Probably from lots and lots of practice.

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alter_ego

I'm an investor, full time for the last five years. I am far more comfortable in that world than I am as a GC. I can tell you as an investor that has done dozens and dozen of houses that we know the numbers because though we dont all do the same thing as each other, we do almost alwayse do the same thing to each SFH w buy.
The investor business offers alot of networking opertunities and as a result we share GC, that are good at what we want done. So my guess is that the gc on "Flip that house" had either worked for that investor before or the investors scope closly matched the scopes of other investors that the GC had worked for.
In my area on the houses I like to buy I spen between 13 and 15K

The only real variables are foundation and HVAC which I now how to bid.

Just my .02


BTW I would be happy to trade mentoring with a well esstablished design build remodeler that is interested in investing. I have so many woes in this business and no one to bounce stuff off of. Not to slight what I get here it has been a God send and I only found this site a few weeks ago. It's just not the same as having someone that you can pick up the phone and talk to.

GriffDecker

I've been remodeling houses and condos for a couple of years, but only do interior remodeling (baths, kitchens, floors, painting), so I'm pretty comfortable with estimates and my costs. I can usually come up with a price on the spot, and will do that if I've got a potential customer who may be interested and wants a "guesstimate". But when I have a true customer, even if I have the price in mind, I'll go home and list out every siungle item that I'll be doing on a spreadsheet, allocate a labor estimate for each item, then give them a total on the bottom. That makes the customer feel like I spent a good bit of time on the numbers, but it also puts down in writing everything that they told me they wanted, so when I do start the job they get what they want and I know exactly what to do.

Grumpy

It is exactly the same thing except it is a confrence call. You are going to get many opinions instead of just one. And as we all know there are 99 ways to skin a cat.

MattCoops

I use a notebook to write down everything HO wants done.
Then I break out the material book, with info and pictures on everything we use.
And I break out a Job Invoice form. And go down each item and its price. I do it aloud as I write it, so HO can see and understand each item and its use.
Then I go over to labor charges section and go through each item; Demo, prep, install, grout/clean/seal, any special requests.

I ask them when they'd like to get started (classic closer), and I break out my calendar to let them know when I'm available.

Then I have them sign the invoice.
and when they sign I write a formal contract that goes over the whole description of project, what is to be done, the materials to be used, and any warranty.
Then they sign the line I grab a check for the deposit, smile and leave.

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painterjim

Unless it's a huge job...8K or over I will write the quote on site. I never throw out arbitrary numbers while "walking" the job. My quote/presentation is so far above my competitions that I want the chance to use it as a selling point. It typically take me 30 minutes to write the qoute, this in addition to "walking" the job.

tcleve4911

Throwing out ballpark numbers is death by impatience. The customer will always remember that number. If it's low, they will hold you to it. If it's high, they will shop elsewhere.
Take pictures on the walkthru. Take good notes & measurements.
Then sit at your desk for 1 hour and list only what you know.
Unknowns should be listed as "allowances" . Put a realistic guess to each allowance and, in your contract, explain how allowances work. Throughout the project, you should have periods of reconciliation so you & HO can see where the allowances are coming in over/under. This CoversYA and lets you do your work that you're good at.
We can never know all the costs at the beginning of a project. That's why we call them "estimates"

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briselec

I now avoid giving a price on the spot like the plague. Too many times I've realized later that I didn't allow for something. For some reason I rarely make that mistake if I wait till I'm back sitting at my desk.
But that's just me, I know other guys can pop figures out of their head all day long and be on the money everytime.

karma_carpentry

Tcleve, could you tell us more about how you use "allowances"? Are these "soft numbers" in your contract that in the end are replaced with the actual costs, and the total job cost adjusted accordingly?

I have been doing small contracts, but I basically write a fixed price, as well as the assumptions and conditions that is based on, with anything above that being additional cost at time and material.

I found these definitions online:

Obviously a bit different meaning than you're using "allowances" to mean.

BTW, I figure a percentage for "contingencies" in my estimates that cannot really be written up as change orders, but it's added to the total job cost, and if everything goes smoothly then it's my "bonus" for running a smooth job. I write it in my estimates as "unforeseen" labor and materials, given that there is always something that unforeseen. But the HO doesn't see this. It's my safety margin.

Debookkeeper

Karma -

The GC I work for also uses allowances. For example, we were building a new house and the homeowner at that time didn't have an idea of what particular plumbing fixtures or cabinets she wanted. So they were listed as allowances, and the number he chose was for moderate priced cabinets and plumbing fixtures. When the time came for her to pick out the said fixtures - if she chose more expensive ones that went above the fixed allowance, she was charged additional. If it fell below the allowance - she was credited.

Deb

widco

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copusbuilder

Personally I will never give bids on the spot. Smaller jobs take 15 minutes at my desk and I am much less likely to miss something.

I do not take yellow page callers so I have to treat all referrals with he respect the person who sent them to me expects. This would include 2-3 hours for a bid. That is my job and it is what I do...because I failed my gynecology exam and have to stay in construction to earn my living....

If I was working for un-referred persons I would likely throw out a price before I wrote it all up

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nadonailer

Like some have said, smaller jobs, (under 10k) I'll throw a price at. the larger the job the more time it takes. Working on a 300k+ job now and have been at it 2 weeks! Can't afford to screw up the big ones!

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