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Old 08-27-2008, 07:15 PM   #1
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What Is The List Of Every Line Item Possible For Roof Replacemts From Insurance Cos.?

I am not asking the rates, because they vary, but what specific individual line items can you think of when doing a complete residential roof replacement.

I will seek someone afterwards for the Xactimate or Power Claim regional unit prices.

Ed
  1. Is a salesmans commission part of the job? It IS an actual Job Cost, isn't it? A commissioned salesman only earns when jobs are sold.
  2. How does OSHA compliance safety subpart-M issues get calculated into the job scope. Heck, anything with an eave edge over 6 feet above the ground requires a minimum of bottom of the roof toe boards and cleats, right?
  3. Dumpster Fee per job, not being re-used on another project.
  4. Tear-off, One Layer or multiple layers
  5. Staples take longer to remove, so does a previously stapled roof get paid higher.
  6. Pulling out all old roofing nails versus banging them in.
  7. Exhaust vent products.
  8. B-Vent re-seating and water-profing the flange.
  9. Chimney flashings on masonry structures.
  10. Simulated chimney surrounds, like Majestic Chimney tops.
  11. Like kind and quality shingle off and priced for same going on.
  12. 15# or 30# felt paper.
  13. Ice and water shield, 3 feet minimum and at least 24" past the exterior heated walls. Code required or only if they have it already.
  14. Plywood decking removal and replacement.
  15. Securing interior attic insulation from blowing out of position when roof deck sheathing is removed.
  16. Rafter replacement.
  17. Sistering in rafters.
  18. Gutter Eave Edge Gutter Apron flashings.
  19. Rake Edge ODE, T-Style Drip edge.
  20. Starter course shingles on eaves.
  21. Bleeder strip starters on rake edges.
  22. Plumbing Vent pipe flashings, remove and replace.
  23. Fascia board remove and replace, 1" x 4", 1" x 6", 1" x 8", etc...
  24. Aluminum gutters remove and replace and downspout leader pipes.
  25. Gutter screening or gutter leaf guard protection.
  26. Ridge Ventilation.
  27. Powered Exhaust Vents.
  28. Carpenter ant discovery and removal and remediation.
  29. Wet insulation removal and replacement.
  30. Temporary overnight tarping. Per square foot or unit pricing per job?
  31. Skinny Rabbit Runs on 12/12 next to dormers. Total square footage is Zilch, but difficulty factor is way up there and very time consuming.
  32. Step flashing, (baby tin), removal and re-setting or replacement.
  33. Steep pitch charge at what point does this come into play.
  34. 2 story or 3rd story charges.
  35. Degree of difficulty for close access to the home for disposal of debris.
  36. Daily take down and resetup fees to keep equipment tidy rather than leaning haphazardly on someones home.
  37. Skylight re-setting or replacement.
  38. Bay window roofs. Once again, it is small square footage, but a pain in the butt to have someone do as quickly as the same square footage on the roof.
  39. Gable returns. Very small and very much a PITA. There are all sorts of names for this architectural anomally, but I think you know what I mean.
  40. Hip and or gable roof waste factors. (Aren't roofs with valleys, the same as an inverted hip roof and requires additional waste factor calculations?
  41. Various methods of obtaining the line item for Overhead and Profit and what do they add on from various carriers?
Okay, that is a start off the top of my head.

What other line items can be added to this list, that should be looked for and separately listed out for every roof done through the insurance company estimating softwares.

Ed

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Old 08-27-2008, 08:10 PM   #2
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I got a bite from a RooferR on another forum, so I will post them here to get as many points archived as possible.

Ed

RooferR:
Depending on the climate, tucking the I&W behind the gutter. Plenty of people out there who don't do it.

Protecting the home during shingle removal. lean plywood up, or hang a tarp.

Cutting the ridgevent slot. Or is that part of the ridgevent line?



Then my response to that.
Ed The Roofer:
I am making a presumption of replacement with like kind and quality, so if they already had a Ridge Vent, the slot should have already been cut.

Now, that brings up an interesting point.

What if the previous brand had a specified 3" slot cut in place.

The brand that you have available to you or that you prefer requires less than a 3" slot, say 2.75" per that manufacturers specification.

Then the plywood along the entire ridge would need to be replaced, since you can not strip in anything less than a 2 foot width of deck sheathing.

Would that required slot width specification mandate that the new replacement plywood get included in the scope of insurable work?

Ed
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:32 PM   #3
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Nice list Ed, you must write really nice estimates!!!

The pitch is priced as a flat rate to a 6/12 then a price for a 7-9/12, then another price for a 10-12/12 and finally a price for a 13/12+. Hip roof laminate 7/12's are my favorite. Lots of ridge, valleys, and 15% waste which they have to pay.

It will be tough to get insurance companies to pay for ridge on a three tab on or off. Starter shingles either on or off on a eave or rake.
A friend of mine said the cut off for a dumpster added to the claim rather than including dumping in the off price is around 21 squares. Personaly I think renting is a waste of money so haul out all debris myself.

Not sure if you mentioned siding remove and re-install for step flashing R&R. In order to offer the Certainteed 5 star warranty all the metal on the roof has to be replaced. Stucho and brick will require counter flashing.

What I find the most strange about how insurance prices are figured out is they pay more on some jobs to install the felt and ice and water than to tear off and remove the shingles. Comming from a new construction back ground doing the underlayment and shingling is easy, tearing off is the hard part.

There is a lot to reply to on the post but gotta do some estimates.

Just a heads up Xactimate did a 8/15/08 price update which not all adjusters are using yet.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:00 PM   #4
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Not sure if you mentioned them,

Satellite dish
Antenna
Dormer (base) flashing

You won't find any insurance companies to pay for a 3 story height charge. They usually only pay for two story when the only way to the roof is from a two story access.

Done many jobs were the back was 3+ stories and when you can put the ladder on the one story garage it's only considered a 1 story. Of course if you have a "top" section of roof it's considered 2 stories usually.

As far as extra for hauling away debris the only line item in Xactimate you could charge would be a per hour for roofer or laborer. Only seen adjuster pay extra for this sort of thing is claims written with MSB.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:36 PM   #5
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Thanks Dougger.

After I get this Roofing List and a similar thread for a Siding/Window List, I was going to contact you to see if you could puch out the unti prices for the zip codes I work in.

I don't know if that is a big pain in the butt or not, but at least if I had the unit prices and the referenced software version to refer to, I could have a better chance at justifying my numbers.

I need to do this for one I just sold earlier today on another old rat trap, but I already got Hartford to change their tune from $ 8,000 total to a bit over $ 14,000 and need them to get up to my $ 16,350 area.

I already caught their mismeasurement by a small amount, so i think I can find another 10% on the roof figures alone.

Ed

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Old 08-28-2008, 08:41 AM   #6
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Ed, there will be no problem giving you some numbers when you gather all the information together. Can email you them or fax them to you. The prices I gave you a while back were on the old price list.

Xactimate prices windows very low. If you write estimates on R&R windows with the program you will be paying out of pocket to buy the windows! If you do windows get the prices from the window company and add in for labor to R&R the window, siding, casing, and paint if needed on both the exterior and interior. If you don't do windows get estimate(s) from reputable companies and enclose the estimate with your scope of work to the insurance company. Make sure to add overhead and profit and you should be in business!

Siding and roofing pays good when you enter all the line items. Got a 4 plex comming up and the siding for R&R medium grade siding is paying $480 a square.

Ed, what is your business plan with this hail? Flyers, pounding on doors??? Are you having home owners sign "contracts" right away?
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:44 AM   #7
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So far this year only had one adjuster write a roof estimate higher than me. 33sq off 7/12 10/12, $18,350. The adjuster must have used Sketch and messed up as he figured the same pitches but came up with 47sq off and $21,850. The roof was a very cut up hip roof with laminate shingles.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:09 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougger222 View Post

Ed, what is your business plan with this hail? Flyer's, pounding on doors??? Are you having home owners sign "contracts" right away?
The one area that got hit pretty good one month ago has been so inundated with out of towner's so quickly, that I just get a few crumbs from direct phone calls.

I added a "Get A Free Report About Storm Chasers" box on my envelope pak mailers that went out to that area.

I don't have them sign one of those on the spot, "Blank" Insurance Agreement Provisions, but I do get them a full scope written with a Like Kind and Quality option, plus the upgrade and code option requirements.

I will allow them to sign that, contingent upon the claim being approved, but my prices stay the same, regardless of the insurance company estimate pay off. They are entitled to receive the difference, regardless of the popular belief, if they have RCV full Replacement Cost coverage. Many disagree with me on that, but if you push the legal definition in their face, they have no choice. Then, the State Insurance Commission is the next place to turn to.

The last one I did and just finished yesterday, the adjuster just typed in, "Comp" because the home owner already had a signed contract with me. He then wrote out a check for the full amount minus the deductible on the spot and the home owners signed it off to my company right then and there.

Since I don't have an ongoing Storm Chasing reputation and the Xactimate skills that you have, what would you suggest?

Ed

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 08-28-2008 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:58 PM   #9
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Use Xactimate. It is more specific than powerclaim. I posted about one instance....and another is that anything 9/12 and up is the same high pitch price. I wouldn't do a 12/12 for the same price as a 9/12.

Get the free program and get used to it. Then get the price lists and it's quite easy after that. You can make very detailed estimates.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:49 PM   #10
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Xactimate all the way.

If you get the free one month version the prices will be off.

Put an order in for a 47sq roof tommorrow and come to find out nobody has Landmark 30 Weather Wood. Nice free upgrade for the home owner to Landmark 40 Weather I guess. United Products don't even have any Landmark 40 Weather Wood!

What Mike Kelly said was true, shortage of Landmark 30's in certain colors.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:54 PM   #11
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I also wanted to throw the Overhead and Profit determination into this discussion.

Here is Xactimates own definition of that module and how it can be included or manipulated to be On or Off.

Ed



If you look at the contents items in Xactimate, you can see that there is a "soft" overhead amount figured into the unit price, just like with structural repairs. No mention is made of "hard" overhead or profit. It stands to reason that O&P should be added to those figures as well.

"Overhead and Profit

What is and isn’t included in Xactware Pricing

OREM, UT, February 2, 2007 - For individual trades, Overhead is any additional expense not charged
(attributed) directly to thework being performed. Overhead is typically classified as an indirect cost. Profit is
formally defined as “the excess of the selling price of goods over cost.”* Profit is typically added to the cost of a
construction-related job to allow the entity performing the work to grow their company through reinvestment.
Xactware, Inc., an industry leader in providing estimating software, services, and building cost data since 1986,
has recognized three categories of overhead. It is the individual user who determines how overhead is added
to the estimate. The information listed below provides general guidelines into how Xactware’s published pricing
is created and intended to be used. When Xactware performs market research on unit prices, those surveyed
are specifically asked to not include expenses that would be included in the General Overhead and Profit markup
percentages (item #1 below).

General Overhead are expenses incurred by a General Contractor, that cannot be attributed to
individual projects, and include any and all expenses necessary for the General Contractor to operate
their business.

Examples (including but not limited to): General and Administrative (G&A) expenses, office rent,
utilities, office supplies, salaries for office personnel, depreciation on office equipment, licenses, and
advertising.

Including General Overhead expenses in an Xactimate estimate--General Overhead expenses are
not included in Xactware’s unit pricing, but are typically added to the estimate as a percentage of the
total bid along with the appropriate profit margin. These two costs together constitute what is normally
referred to in the insurance restoration industry as General Contractor’s O&P, or just O&P. General
Overhead and Profit percentages can be added in the Estimate Parameters window within an
Xactimate estimate.

Job-Related Overhead are expenses that can be attributed to a project, but cannot be attributed to
a specific task and include any and all necessary expenses to complete the project other than direct
materials and labor.

Examples (including but not limited to): Project managers, onsite portable offices and restroom
facilities, temporary power and fencing, security if needed, etc.

Including Job-Related Overhead expenses in an Xactimate estimate--Job Related Overhead
expenses should be added as separate line items to the Xactimate estimate. This is done within the
Line Item Entry window of an Xactimate estimate by selecting the proper price list items, or creating
your own miscellaneous items.

Overhead and Profit. © Copyright 2008 Xactware Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved. 2
Job-Personnel Overhead represents the non-wage related expenses incurred by a General
Contractor that are associated to having their own employees perform the work, or the total
G&A expenses incurred by a professional Sub-Contractor when using their services.

Examples: Vehicle costs, uniforms, mobile phones, depreciation on hand-tools owned by the company,
etc. Job- Personnel Overhead also includes the portion of General and Administrative expenses and
profit that correlate to employees performing billable tasks, and that are not included in the General
Contractor O&P mark-up. These expenses will be incurred either by the general contractor using
employees or by a sub-contractor, depending on who is actually performing the work. If the work is
being sub-contracted, then these expenses are commonly called Sub-Contractor Overhead and Profit.
Including Job Personnel Overhead/Sub-Contractor O&P in an Xactimate estimate-- Job Personnel
Overhead (or Sub-Contractor O&P) expenses are included in the Labor Overhead portion of each
unit price in the Xactware price list. The Labor Overhead, along with expenses for Labor Burden and
Worker Wage (wage paid to the individual) make up the Retail Labor Rate. For more information on
Retail Labor Rates, see the white-paper in the “Helpful Downloads” section of Xactware’s eService
Center at: http://
eservice.xactware.com/apps/esc/retail_labor1.jsp.
Updating the Labor Overhead portion of the Retail Labor Rate is done from the Component List of an Xactimate
estimate. Once within the Component List, select the option to view Retail Labor Rate components. This list
allows you to view and modify all Retail Labor Rates used within the estimate. Price changes to a Retail Labor
Rate here will affect prices in all items in the estimate that use this Retail Labor Rate.

Xactware, Inc. publishes and makes unit price data available to all customers each quarter, based off market
surveys. Every effort has been made to ensure that Xactware’s users can access, view, and modify all detail
within the published unit prices.

The building cost data published by Xactware is not designed to be inclusive of sales tax, General O&P, or
Job-Related O&P within the unit prices. These can be specified and added at print time after all line items have
been listed. However, Xactware has designed flexibility into the system so this is not mandatory. Xactware’s
users have the option to add these costs to their line items as they choose. The Xactimate system is designed
to provide full detail on all costs that are incurred.

*Merriam Webster Dictionary-new edition-1994

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 08-28-2008 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:19 PM   #12
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Wow, your posts are too long Ed. To simplify this. O&P should be added to the trade and added in on the line items and calculated into the prices. The O&P added on the parameters page is only if you have 3 trades or more (ie roofing, siding, grage doors, painter, etc) They normally add 10 and 10 for O&P on the whole bill if you are the GC and have 3 or more trades on one job.
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:05 PM   #13
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take the adjustor out of his comfort zone

How about the following;

1. Permit fee.
2. Hours to fill out and obtain the permit.
3. Trucking with driver to get equipment and take to site.
4. Trucking with driver for close out and putting equipment away.
5. Supervision time.
6. Staging rental.
7. Remove and reinstall siding.
8. Replace lead flashing covered with tar.
9. Take apart pockets at inside corners of dormers that dead end into roof slope.
10. Charge for work that needs to be done by a carpenter instead of a roofer.
11. Harnesses and rail systems for high roofs.
12. Emergency cover up billed separately from the claim under the mitigation clause. Labor, trucking, the tarp, staging and a minimum of two men for 4 ours minimum job. If on the weekend or holiday overtime assessment. If you are removing a tree figure labor on the roof to remove separately from brush removal which is limited to by the policy. ($500.00 in Mass)

I was a public adjuster in Mass and handled roofing, ice dam, wind and structural collapse insurance claims for over 14 years. The way I did estimates was completely different than the insurance company estimate programs. I did a complete breakdown of every step our roofers and office personnel had to complete. I left out nothing. Often times, roofs were not vented according to code or manufacturer requirements and this upgrade was covered under ordinance or law coverage. If tear offs cracked boards during removal I fought to get that paid for on supplementals. By doing the estimate using the stick method, you take the insurance adjuster out of his comfort zone. They have to go through your estimate line by line and most of the time the adjustor's have no clue on what it takes to complete a roof properly. I always told them that unit cost pricing used for their estimates was based on builder grade materials and labor and new home construction rates and does not apply to existing residential home remodeling which is done with insured labor not builder subs who don't always carry the right insurance. Many times, if their is any insurance at all the employees are misclassified. When I got crap from the adjuster I wrote a letter and demanded to speak to a supervisor. I also asked them to send out a legal licensed insured contractor to back up their estimate. When their contractor came out I asked to see proof of his insurance and license. If he didn't have it I told him he was not qualified to work for my customer who is entitled to have a reputable contractor price the job. I told him he couldn't go on the roof until I saw his insurance. I also never settled a claim before thirty days. Most insurance companies know that if a claim isn't settled in the first couple of weeks they usually go up at least 50%. Never take the first offer.
Also many insurance companies try to get away with patches or doing on half of a roof. On patches I told them there will be not guarantee because it was a band-aid. Also I would never warranty someone else's roof work and why should the owner have to live with that. On doing half a roof I successfully argued that the owner could never sell a house that has a mismatched roof.
Insurance companies only want to pay for wholesale costs and try to get away with only paying 10 and 10. By breaking everything out using the stick method I usually doubled the initial offering presented by the adjuster.

mark the coach

Last edited by mark the coach; 08-29-2008 at 11:08 PM. Reason: mistake
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:19 PM   #14
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Wonderful add ons Mark.

You really had me flabergasted until I got to the paragraph with your biography of previous experience. Good for you!!!

Yes, you know how to skin the cat.

Here is another one that is supposedly Federally mandated.

A job site Port-O-Potty.

You can not expect the Home Owner to provide such provisions.

Ed
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:36 PM   #15
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don't forget the porty potty

Your right Ed I forgot about the portble potty.
You just made me remember a phone call I got from a ticked off owner because one of my roofers had to do his duty in her master bedroom bath. He had a loose one and it went all over the seat and the aroma spread throughout the master suite.
Getting the final payment was interesting. I made him clean the seat. Do you think the insurance adjuser will pay for that?

have a good one

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Old 08-31-2008, 03:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark the coach View Post
Your right Ed I forgot about the portble potty.
You just made me remember a phone call I got from a ticked off owner because one of my roofers had to do his duty in her master bedroom bath. He had a loose one and it went all over the seat and the aroma spread throughout the master suite.
Getting the final payment was interesting. I made him clean the seat. Do you think the insurance adjuser will pay for that?

have a good one

mark the coach
I almost spit my drink on my monitor on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark the coach View Post
How about the following;

3. Trucking with driver to get equipment and take to site.
4. Trucking with driver for close out and putting equipment away.

mark the coach
These 2 are usually grouped & listed as Mobilization. That's the line item we used when I worked for an underground utilities contractor.

Last edited by iceman61; 08-31-2008 at 10:50 AM.
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