Warranty Cover Interior Damage

OGStilts

No, the quality of your posts and qualifying yourself by a professional web presence is what makes you professional in my opinion.

I don't always agree with IHI but I tend to agree with him here. If I pay you for a first rate job and get a half fast job and it leaks, why the hell am I responsible for your F***UP. It all comes down to proof in my opinion. If it's your mistake you pay. If the homeowner nails their Xmas lights to the roof and it leaks I can prove that with reasonable certainty, then I will not hold you responsible. I think it's ridiculous to say you have no responsibility for anything that happens to that roof after you walk off that job. That will not stand up in any court any where.

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Travis

You obviously didn't read my reply earlier: part of it

Chimney's, plumbing pipes(cracks or broke below the roof), windows, siding,etc. There is just way to much liabilty out there to warrant interior damage.
But if i go out to a job and is some crappy workmanship that I did't catch, then I would pay for interior damage's(either out of pocket or turn into my insurance). (I have yet to do this in 8 years in business, over 1000 roofs, 0 complaints with BBB)
Most call backs(99.9%) are not result of the roof, but something else like a chimney,other penetration or condensation.


I warrant all my roofs for 5 years. Out of roughly 700 roof still under warranty, I have yet to not satisfy all complaints or warranty work.

I go above and beyond if need be, but from time to time come across a homeowner who wants crap fixed for free that is not my problem.
Like condensation or chimney not sealed, mortar missing, no flu cap, broken plumbing pipe below the roof line, window leaking, skylight glass(not flashing) leaking.

I have never been to court, no complaints with BBB. A plus Angie's list.

I (owner of the company) am at customers house either that day or the following day for any roof leak calls under warranty.(Get quite a few referrals from the responsiveness of roofs that leak) and 99.9% of the time it is not the roof, but another source.

OGStilts

You're right, if you said that earlier I missed it. I was just lumping you in with the others who said they would NEVER warrant any interior damages which is a complete cop out if you ask me.

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IHI

Now i commend your customer service, that is what i feel we should all strive for, but the comment you made and that i highlighted hits a terrible nerve with me and let me explain why:

First of all, as i said before, l am a general contractor so we handle ALL aspects and/or subbing of trades for any project imaginable so i tend to have alot more on the line reputation wise because I am in charge of the job, and whens there's a problem..guess who gets called first....ME, so being in this position i'm in charge of overseeing how each tradesman perfoms their jobs and this has cost me alot of money finding the right guys to use. Main point being, the roofs that i sell are VERY few and far between...i might close 1 out of 25 roofs i bid...terrible record right? that would definately not be good in a person n your position that is a roofing and needs to lay shingles to make a living and pay the help, you'd probably go broke selling roofs with my miserable closing rate...BUT before you get too excited let me tell you why i have a horrible closing rate on roofs compared to the other 98% of roofers in the area or nation wide as far as that goes...I care, I offer a COMPLETE roof makeover, I offer a long term solution to their roofing needs, I offer a roof that will last longer because i bid a complete roofing SYSTEM...

What do i mean by roofing system? Well, when i look at a job, i dont just sit in the pick up and make up a number, i dont measure a building and guesstimate, i dont just get on the roof, walk it, look things over/measure...read this carefully...I actually ask for access to the attic so i can get a visual on what is going on venting wise...FRESH AIR INTAKE so i can give the other half of the SYSTEM...attic exhausting. Sounds crazy right?? yeah i know, why would a person wanting to slap down some shingles pick up a check and move onto the next house the next day give two chits about what's in the attic?? The check will long be cashed, crew will long be paid, bills will long be paid, toys will be bought by the time that roof starts to degregate from the inside out due to too much heat building up and creating the oven effect that is killing the "new roof" you just slammed out. There's no way to properly get rid of the mositure because your venting is not correct, so it just condensates and starts degrading the wood creating long term problems...but we dont care about that stuff because we got our checks...it's not our responsibility to give consumers ALL the PROPER information to ensure your giving them a LONG TERM product...my god, that takes more time...that takes more money, and we cant sell jobs when i have 2-5 other companies all bidding it at normal slap shingle rate can we because i have to figure in the extra time and material to get that attic vented properly.

Now i fully understand the mentality of who cares, that's on them, they hired us to lay the shingles and that's what we gave them...and then cover your azz by saying, "we gave them the option but they did'nt want to spend the extra money".....bullsheeot is how i call that excuse. Do tile setters give an option of putting down cement board as an upcharge and if the folks dont want to do it just lay the tile directly on the plywood? do they give them the option to sister up joists that span too far and will eventually crack grout lines? Well, i'm sure handy man might, but professionals usually dont, they want their work to last, because that job is part of their names legacy, so it either gets done as it should...or the homies can call some other hack to give them half azzed work.

Sorry Travis, but you walked right into that one...and i really do hate soap boxers..honestly i do, but we get alot of our work be redoing other's screw ups and i get to hear stories of all kinds, and the biggest thing, after i take the extra time to try and educate homeowners on how we're going to solve the problem, why there's a problem in teh first place, and what could've been done from the beginning to thwart this problem i get similar remarks...well if we would've know all that, we would've just had them do it the first time....now weather those people were informed or not like i try to inform them..i dunno, does'nt matter, but there's times when you have to walk away vs giving a job that is only half way done.

Worst part, every year there seems to be less and less emphasis on long term solutions and more and more just do what you have to do so you can cash a check...

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Travis

Roof leaks that turned out to be condensation call backs were not visible to the naked eye from a ventilation aspect. All look correct at time of roof estimate.

I have seen I don't know how many times, where the soffit/facsia got wrapped in new fascia and soffit years prior with perforated soffits, come to find out there were no holes in the soffit. Slacker siding guys just put perforated soffits over solid wood soffits.

Homeowners will turn their humidifier's up to 40-50%, or just get new humidifier's, or possibly get newer windows where moisture once escaped and now is condensing on the roof deck.

Lack of insulation is another one.

Cathedral ceilings with no air space- undetectable without ripping the ceiling before making an accurate assumption if all is right.

I sale 90% of jobs of people who give a crap about these kinds of things.Warranty, extended warranties,proper ventilation, all the technical stuff.

But they are the small minority. Maybe 5%.

So for the remaining people who just want a roof and don't have the money or care in the world about the other stuff(Its fine now, we don't have problems now type mentality) I want to protect myself from these type of people.

They are the ones that will come back and say, why is this leaking or it did't do this before.

Well maam, it has done this for the last 10-30 years, it has finally penetrated the 10-12 inches of insulation.

I would love to be able to get into every attic that I bid, but that is impractical. I will if I am on the roof and feel I need to look in the attic or change or modify the ventilation system.

I do everything I can to accurately install a roof to manufactur specs. Not all is going to be exact(I don't agree with all man. specs anyway), but I try to get the best to my ability to cover my azz.

And yes, I do give a sh*t. My workers really don't like me because I am so picky.

J F

Travis, ihi does know his ****, no matter your panties are in a wad right now, but he does...

MEL

How would you be able to prove or disprove when the damage occurred?

Are you going to go in and take pictures of the entire interior of the house before you start the job? Are you going to keep those photos forever?

Unless of course there is water dripping from the roof in the attic, then you would know that it is a current leak. Otherwise how do know that you won’t get blamed for previous damage?

Beside that, if the homeowner signed the agreement knowing that the contractor is not obligated to fix interior damage then how can you say the contractor is not taking responsibility for his actions?

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IHI

If i knew anything, i'd be on a beach right now sipping fruitey drinks being fanned by half naked exotic women catering to my every whim not looking at the forecast pizzed off because it rains 3 days a week i am now asking the guys to work weekends since we cant work during the week

I think i just initally took this post at blunt face value...guys wanting to sell a job and not stand behind it...and made it sound like they were actually trying to weasel out of it leaving the homies high and dry if something failed and it was the installers fault, so it struck a nerve. But after reading many of the roofers posts, they sound like gutter guys who claim they can only work 1 day a week and spend the other 4-5 days fixing/going back to jobs because homies are nit picking....maybe i mis understood, but ultimately we're on the same page...i dunno, and you know me well enough, i dont much care if somebody get's their panties in a wad, because they're not affecting what i'm doing tomorrow in real life LOL!!

Reading the past few posts from Travis, i'm seeing what he's saying, i'm getting what he's saying and i agree with about all of it and how he rolls and where he's coming from, the only thing i dont agree with him is the attic issue and saying it's not practical to check or attempt to investigate proper venting...hell, we just did a roof last month, i sold the venting issue based on history of the way they vented that style of home in that era...well, we pulled off the fascia, started removing the soffit and found when the place was sided they did indeed take the time to vent it properly, homies were planning to add insulation to attic once we were done so we did install chutes, but i knocked everything off the bill for the sofffit check...i ate it, the time we spent pulling down/putting back together and material to put it back together...but at least i knew it was right, and i still made money so i did'nt sweat it a bit

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J F

i want my $20 now

IHI

HUH???? if your called to fix a leaking chimney, and fix the leaky chimney only. Go into the attic to verify that is exactly where it's leaking and what other residual damage has occured so you can sell a complete repair. You do the complete repair, but you screw up and dont fix it right, chimney still leaks...that's your problem to fix AGAIN and any residual damage that came from it....but when your initally looking at the job you will note preexisting damage inside with the homeowner, you will note damage in attic space, you will note what needs to be done outside to fix it. You will make note of these in person with the home owner, you will make note of them on the proposal, you will make note of them i the contract...so you now have multiple notes and multiple places everybody has seen and understoof noted problems and suggested remedy's...but again, if it still leaks and screws things up..you ate it, sorry.

If a roof is brand new, ALL brand new and does'nt leak...then all of a sudden they call in those satalite installing pukes and THEN problems start to occur...which you as a skilled roofer will be able to detect since you will see interior damage first which means it's too late already, damage has been done. You will look on the roof first for possible obvious problems, and then you will get in the attic and trace water stains/mositure soaked material to find the actual point of entry and it can be positively traced to some idiot driving screws/lags through the roof...hell, i can snap a picture of all the evidence on my cell phone and lay it out for the homeowner before i leave so they know what i know....liability-gone....but if evidence points to something you missed, that's on you. little time, little effort, little people skillz goes a looong ways.

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IHI

Dayum, least i did'nt get hit with the pre weekend fee...check your pay pal account

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J F

thank you, thank you very much

Travis

Most new homes(10-15yrs old)are typically ventilated to newer ventilation standards. I see no need to get in every attic. If I come across an older or iffy house -bad decking everywhere, existing leaks, I will get in the attic.

Most times it would take homeowner hours just to clear the area to get access to the attic.

If house has proper intake and exhaust, decking feels good and solid, shingles aren't curling to bad, no existing leaks, then no I am not getting in the attic.

Many houses dont have access to all attic spaces, only certain area's.

Alot depends on the homeowners initial visit.
Price shoppers, tire kickers, serious, not serious,etc,etc.

twill59

I am no lawyer, or business guru, but the only way that I could see pulling this off:

1) A very thorough pre-job inspection w/ documents and photos along w/ complete accessibilty of all areas of the home--- basement to attic. Along w/ the customer signing off on my findings. And yes, it will be another $300 ma'am. Might as well get another $200 and sell them a home inspection

2) an increase in my insurance covereage--- another few bucks per job. Plus it would prolly not be a bad idea to take pictures of completed work, and put in the file. Another few bucks

Grumpy

You can't document all pre existing damage. You can't prove often when damage occured, if it was pre-existing.

Protect yourselves or you'll get burnt, eventually. If you choose to correct some subsequent damage that's your decision. However protect yourself in the situations when you do not want to, for what ever reason.


This post has become a pissing contest.

IHI

I think due in part to the very broad nature of the question. Guys like me took it as this....guys like you took it as that....pretty simple after taking the time to digest what everybody has put forth thus far. Believe me, i've run into off the wall crap...doing a bathroom remodel and when we leave the kitchen sink faucet only works at half power...naturally we get called because we were the last ones there so it was our fault. BUT I still send my plumber back, he then takes care of it. Some things are beyond my control, i've learned to just deal with it to a point and not get too excited about it since there's a tiny built in cost on the job associated just for this purpose.

Like i said, to broad of a question and as seen, many interpretations...not really a pissing contest at all. the only bitter quality i have is to the sales pukes selling slap shingle jobs with no regard to selling a properly installed roofing and venting system. I know the majority of roofers could give two ****s about anything other than slapping down shingles and moving on, it's been that way for eternity and will continue to be that way because there's not enough guys that can afford to lose work due to homie budget constraints and rock bottom pricing being the key to getting a job...so yes, homies are getting what they pay for, 2/3's of a job, and it's good for guys like me because in 5-10yrs we come along, remedy the problem and look like hero's LOL!! Simply because i took the added time to investigate and explain vs trying to just shove a contract down their throat looking for a signature on the spot..."business" wise i'm dumb, i should be jumping the bandwagon taking advantage of folks like everybody else and raking in money hand over fist...but i cant, just was'nt programmed that way unfortunately But it's not only roofing, there's folks that dont care in all the aspects of the trades...

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MrRoofer

Unless you go in and document all pre-existing damages before you do the job, you are setting yourself up for business failure by making yourself liable for all damages due to faulty installation. However to do so in this industry, is to my knowledge, not at all cost effective.

I ain't doing this for free, but somehow people seem to think I should. This is where the extra line in the contract comes into play, to protect my livelyhood. If people want to insult my extremely hard earned livelyhood, fine, but do not expect me to be happy about it . This is no pissing contest. This is what I do. No offense to anyone because I don't see the point in that.


Business is about making money, and as far as I can really tell, that, is all. I gave up the making friends and people happy aspect of it a long time ago, and have done very well since. Before that was a pretty miserable existence, I'm sure most of the good honest folk can relate with. That's not to say I don't try and find a good balance of both, but at the end, profit absolutely has to reign supreme, probably because currently it is what makes the world go round.

You know, I used to carry those good ideals around, but experience in this industry has taught me those ideals are never going to be real. This has a lot more to do with the state of things in the world than in this particular industry, but thats a whole other diatribe in unto itself, and I have ranted long enough. I've got roofs to do.

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BamBamm5144

I have a clause the same as Grumpys. I will fix things at my own discretion because like he said, people will take advantage. Often times, Ive heard of people waiting for weeks or months to report a leak so that more damage occurs inside. Then they will tell you they want all new everything. The clause really is a way for the extorting type of homeowner to be able to be quiet. I had one drywall issue when it started pouring out of nowhere on a sunny day and I fixed it. A second time, I got a call a year later from a guy saying he has a few leaks comming in from around the chimney. Upon arrival, I was able to tell that his chimney had just got work done to it. Typical of Masons, they just nailed right into the roof and didnt caulk it. Am I responsible for the inside of his house then? I use the clause at my own discretion. If anything is wrong that I did, I will fix it but im not the business of paying to fix others mistakes.

If you dont have clauses like that, one day you'll get into a lot of trouble when you run into the wrong homeowner. IHI, I am sure you are protected with your subcontractors. That if anything they do is wrong they must go back and fix so that you dont have to pay two different people two different times to do the same thing.

Times are lot different then when my G-Pa was in the business and all you needed was a handshake. Everyone needs to protect themselves.

dougger222

My warranty makes no mention of interior repairs if a installation defect is found. IF a problem I caused has caused interior damage I will pay to have the roof fixed and the interior fixed. For my business which runs soley on referrals I want the home owner to be happy.

For example I had a roof with two 6ft 4in wide skylights. My brother and I roofed around the one without an issue. The one my Uncle roofed around leaked. Had two trips out with tar and caulk and it still leaked. My father and I decided to rip out all the shingles across the top and inspect. One of my grunts must have poked the top flashing with a pitch fork. My Uncle should have caught this and told me about it. The fix was new flashing and problem solved. The crude looking sheet rock job had some minor damage so I mailed a check to the home owner for $250.
The insurance adjuster jinxed(sp?) me by saying why would I want to roof a house with those two things on it. The home owner to this day is still very very happy with my company. Each call had us out within 24 hours. The other two contractors she's worked with in the past were nothing but trouble. One while doing landscape in the back yard cut off power to her detached garage and never fixed it. Another took half down for new countertops and never returned.

What I've learned is if you have no call backs you don't do very much roofing. The bigger the company the more call backs.

dougger222

Here's a story on customer satisfaction.

A couple years ago my brother decided to advertise his phone number with my license number. I was unaware of this until one day I got a call from the Dept. of Labor. The home owner mailed the dept. a copy of the add with my license number hence the call.

From what I understand the home owner was under the impression he was getting 1/2 inch plywood over his gapped decking and not OSB. He didn't like the Lomanco turtle vents and wanted the really cheap Menards style turtle vents, the bottom of a valley was lifted due to the OSB being cut too long and there were a few corners were the drip edge didn't look good.

Decided to take care of this problem myself. Met the home owner in person went over the list and after two trips with my father 9 hours each, $200 in materials, and he was almost happy. What made him really happy was when I wrote him a check for $1K for the decking issue. I lost my butt on it but my standing with the state was untarnished, not the relationship with my brother though!!!

I'm not a member of the BBB, big waste of money. I was a member for a while and after I dropped them they wrote in my business profile,
"This contractor may be out of business since we can't get a hold of him by phone. If you have an issue with this contractor you may want to seek legal advice". When I read this I called the BBB and had some very choice words with them. Wonder how many jobs I lost because of them?

I did a roof a couple years ago for a retired business owner. He gave me one bit of advice and that was to make a call back high priority. If the call comes in over the weekend plan to be on site first thing Monday morning. If the call came in during the week plan to be there first thing next working day. He ran three business over 45 years all of which did really well. Just did a roof for a retired black top installer. His only advice to me was to work every day!!!