Valleys...

2ndGen

Under which cases are open valleys or closed valleys preferred?

I only use closed valleys for shingles.

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

Ed the Roofer

I install open valleys with sheet metal on top of Ice and Water Shield, only when the home owner chooses that upgrade option.

I have a neat trick that I do when I break the w-valley metal. For the top piece, that always has that inverted "V" with the opening, I take a 10 foot section of sheet metal and bend it so that it tapers down to a Zero inverted "V". You usually have to scrap the top 5 feet of metal since the break in the metal winds up going over to the other side, but it beats cutting and folding and using caulk or installing a sheet lead covering at the apex of the valley.

Ed

2ndGen

I'd love to see a pic of that detail.
Have any?

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

RooferJim

we would only do a W-vally if it were specified and that is rare. V-vallys all the way. some guys like to taper the exposure 1/8" per foot from top to bottom but I like them cut in straight. When I was union we used to always put them in with cleats no nails ever went through the metal and would lock and solder the apex rather than use a lead saddle. somtimes we still do it this way. I think a W-vally is only possibly needed if you have two drasticly different roof slopes. I like the look of the V better and they are way more common around these parts.

2ndGen

Why would a metal valley be better than a closed valley of the same material that the rest of the roof is in?

I've always seen it as an opening for water to get in during extreme conditions (clogged gutters, blowing winds, hard rain, etc...).

It makes sense for natural materials (wood, slate, tile, etc...) that can't be formed to be closed in the valley, but for shingles?

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

Ed the Roofer

I remember the last job we did, but that was when I was using 35mm film instead of a digital camera. My secretary gets back from some minor surgery next week Wednesday, so I will have her look it up. Remind me, with the home owners name being Stemwedel, okay.


Tapering the shingle cuts away from the bottom minimizes leaf and needle congestion at the base of the valley, by allowing an increasingly wider area to funnel the dispersement of water draining downward.

I know cleats should be used, but I only do that on copper valleys that require the additional selling presige and perspective. After all, the shingles are getting nailed into the metal anyways, aren't they?

I am not a good enough solderer, unless it is on a flat surface. I need more practice.

Ed

RooferJim

with a cedar roof a closed vally will always prematurly rot out before its time.
On a slate roof a closed vally is interlaced with diamond shaped pieces of flashing "usually LCC" and will outlive an open vally any day.

2ndGen

Good man! Thanks!

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

2ndGen

How muc longer does a closed valley on a slate roof take?
Would that be considered a "woven" valley?

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

RooferJim

No a woven vally is only for three tabs. A closed vally is done with interlacing flashing with every course similar to step flashing but you have to work both sides of the vally together. I think its faster than open but there are a few tricks to doing your cuts that save a lot of time. I only make flashing for slate roofs out of copper or lead coated copper.

dougger222

Closed California valleys only here. About 7 years picked up a builder who demanded them and at first I didn't like it. After a few roofs it made more sense than open valleys especially for me working alone so much back then. A couple years later another builder switched from open to closed then not long after my main builder switched too. For the past 6+ years all my tear offs are with closed valleys. Other builders in the past few years I've worked for have also demanded closed valleys.

What I was doing prior to switching to make a water tight open valley was after puttind down the open valley would cut a water and ice down the center and put the factory edge along the valley right were my cut was made which was usually one finger on top and for every section one finger towards the bottom.

I don't miss those day of setting 40ft of open vally by myself. When I used to bring my wife on bids she always pointed out open valley saying closed looks better. Had one home owner in the past 6 years ask for painted open valley. When I used to do open valley used to have home owners ask for closed valley from time to time. They would say they didn't want to see the metal in the valleys, I don't blame them.

2ndGen

I've come across valleys that were almost a continuation of one side of the roof unto unto the other roof...the courses lined up and were installed in a curve.

There's a pic of a European roof at this link that I can't upload:

http://picasaweb.google.com/temartin...40319089066002

Ever done one of those?

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

2ndGen

Aestecially speaking, I prefer closed valleys too, just as I prefer roof flashings that are colored to match the roof. I was painting my flashings a decade before I saw anybody else doing it. It just made sense to me intuitevly.

But technically, it's always best (for me) to not give water any chance or opening to get in under extreme weather conditions (snow & ice back-up, etc...). I was taught to never let there be less than 18" between the end of the shingle and the center of the valley on the side that's going to get overlapped, to keep the nails at least 8" from the valley center and to never allow them to be installed in a manner where they'd bunch up...there had to be a flow that had to be maintained so that once the overlapping courses were installed, there wouldn't be a noiticable lump when they settled.

There are various ways to install closed valleys and for me, as long as they work, that's fine by me.

The only time I ever made mistakes was when I'd experiment and venture outside of my father's instructions. When ever I'd try things like that, my mistakes would come back to haunt me (as would his voice in my head! ). So I learned to have blind faith in him. After all, he's had almost 1/2 a century on the roof. He's been around longer than most roofing companies around here. He's a dinosaur. He'll lay our 50' runs without chalklines and they'll come out virtually perfect. I doubt I'll ever be that good...but I won't stop trying. If I were 10% of what he is, I'd still blow most roofer away.

Watching him taught me to respect lifelong tradesmen. I was set to be a lawyer. Dropped out of college, came back home and hit the last place I ever thought I'd be on for the rest of my life...the roofs.

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

RooferJim

That pic is what we call a canoe vally or another variation is called a round vally. We have a lot of them on the colleges around here like at Wellesly.
some neiborhoods west of Boston have a lot of them as well. under it is all wood blocking built in, its kinda like an eyebrow dormer in reverse. Yes we have done these before and they take a lot of time. Wellesly collage also has a building with canoe cheeks "radias into a sidewall". a lot of the sidewalls are slate as well. A slaters dream "or nightmare".

2ndGen

I imagined it exactly as you stated it except for structure, I imagined slates being built up underneath (smaller widths).

But as soon as I saw it, that's exactly what I thought...a reverse eyebrow install.

Geez...that must be awesome work to do. As I told you before...

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

MJW

I personally think a woven valley is a waste of material. A 24" wide valley tin works, and looks better IMO. It also works better because when a homeowner goes up on their roof (they all do), they usually walk in the valley, right? The shingles normally will break in a valley that is woven, not to mention all the dirt, leaves, and branches that get stuck in them.

When I see a woven valley on a residential house, I immediately think "storm chaser" or "illegals". Those are the only people I have seen do it, especially with a multi-layer shingle.

2ndGen

I never liked woven valleys period. The only time I've seen them installed is on home improvement shows.

But I do prefer closed valleys. When I install them, I make sure I set them "into" the valley so there won't be any mishaps with anybody stepping in it. I take great care to seat them right. I like a nice tight fight so that if there is any movement, it won't be much.

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

tinner666

When I have vastly different pitches, I throw the W valley away and use the channeled valley.
http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/sho...&file=2513&s=0

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Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

2ndGen

I really like #8 the way the valley drops like that.

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

Grumpy

I do open valleys with all products that the manufacturer requires, like cedar, slate and ultra premium architectural shingles. I will also do them for customers who like the look of Copper W valley with regular shingles.