Tricky Leak

J-Peffer

I’ve gotten only a few call backs, but this is one that is not so easy to resolve.
I did around 30 roofs last summer and this is the only one that has caused any issues with me. I feel I take the time to do the job right, apply the right materials in the right places.
I have a hip roof I did last year, the construction on the house is really poor, it must have been a first time remod…looks like a modular that had another modular added on.
We replaced the roof (4:12) and used ice and water down both the valleys. Ice and Water guard is also used 6’ up on the rakes of the roof. The shingles are cross cut and are certainteed landmark dimensional 30yrs.
I’m extremely concerned as I’ve yet to have a disappointed customer, and to be honest it is really bothering me. Ice is forming the lower portion of the valley’s on each side. Both sides appear to be leaking now.
I’m trying to pin point the leak, or why the ice and watergaurd could be failing. Any tips, would be greatly appricated.
Also, the main living room of the home has no ventilation, it is a cathedral ceiling and I’m going to assume by the poor workman ship on the house that the builder did not use any baffles to allow for ventilation. I know this is an issue, but normally the ice and water guard just does not fail.
Thanks in advance!

Ed the Roofer

Firstly, what did you do to either inspect and determine if there were any vaffles under the sheathing and on top of the insulation to allow for free folwing air through the rafter bays?

Did you install 100% continuous soffit strip venting or under shingle Smart Vent to ensure plenty of fresh air intake ventilation could come into the structure?

If the ridgeline would have provided at least 40% of the NFVA required for the home, did you install a continuous ridge vent?

If the ice dam is wider than the 3 foot wide roll of Ice and Water Shield you installed in the valley, the dammed up pooling water could still find its way into the nails that penetrate the felt paper.

Thr proper balanced ventilation system will reduce the likelihood of hot spots on the roof, which would minimize the potential for ice dams to be created in the first place.

Ed

apkole

Ed,

If it was a modular w/cathedral cielings, I've seen the rafter bays stuffed with fiberglass bats. I ran across one job where there was blocking in between the rafters. The construction on these units is lousy to say the least, and doesn't conform to conventional codes. Especially if an older unit.

Saying 6' up the rakes, but I hope you mean extending 6' up from the eves. I have no compunction looking the customer in the eye and explaining that roof mateials and roof construction is designed to shed water flowing downhill. Any condition that causes a deviation in that flow pattern and all bets are off.

Just thinking here . . . . was the valley I&W laid in first, then the eve courses? Did anything occur during installation which might have damaged the I&W? Tears, cuts, abrasions?

2ndGen

J,

Get us a picture posted.

If the quality of the house is that poor, could it be extreme movement of the addition from the main structures? I'd look at soffits/eaves for problems. If you laid the roof right, your water has to be coming in at the eave.

Again, I'd love to see pictures.

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

J-Peffer

Thanks for the help,

I am supposed to meet the customer again to take a peek into the attic and asses the situation from that stand point as well.
The ventilation on the main part of the home appears to be fine, there are sofit vents installed and Sure Vent II was used on the roof for ridge vent. There are defiantly hot spots though or daming would not be as it is. Today I knocked off ice in the valley that was pushing 6” thick.
The ice and water guard was put down first in the valley and then applied to the eves of the roof.
I’m having a hell of a day because of this, but I’ll defiantly get some pictures as you guys will love the handy work done on this structure. The home owners appear to be nice folks and understanding but that only makes it worse for me as I feel more obligated to help.
I’m going to double check the sofit vents to make sure there is no blockage, and I’m almost positive no baffles were used on the great rooms cathedral ceiling….who that frames like this would know about free air flow? I’m just surprised the ice/water is getting past the weather guard. I’m debating running some “lab test” on the weather guard while I’m slow in the winter!

Slyfox

The thickness of the ice build up is the lesser concern,
like Ed said, if the ice spand is several feet wide in either direction than the melting ocurring behind the ice can be backing up under the shingles beyond the point of the i&w's coverage.
I&W only protects the area it is covering so it is possible for a valley to leak even with i&w installed so look beyond that point for your leaks.

__________________

J-Peffer

This is what I'm kind of thinking.

The ice is building up thick enough to make the dam in the vally wider than the 1.5 feet the I&W covers. Do you think it could be getting behind the I&W at the seam where the eve I&W over laps the vally I&W?

Because of the poor ventalation on this roof, and the hot spots I'm going to suggest the use of heat tape though the winter.

If they want to pay me to vent properly, I can, but it's not going to be cheap with this type of scab house.

Ed the Roofer

If it is a cheap brand of I & W Shield that isn't very tacky and was cold when applied, that "Might" be a minor possibility, but I think the dam is getting beyond the 18" coverage point.

Ed

J-Peffer

We used Alco I&W gaurd, it was done in september so it was probably in the 70's for temp.

I know they are extending past the 18" each way in the vally, but the dams are not 6' up from the eves. We used I&W 6' up.

Grumpy

You didn't mention ventilation or gutters. Ice sitting on a roof is no problem. Ice backing in, is. If the ice shield is there it probably isn't coming in from the valley.

Again you didn't say anything about ventilation, so my thought is perhaps it is condensation buildup and thaw. Also if there are gutters, even with ice shield, depending on the edge detail, back-up is still possible.

J-Peffer

No gutters on the house at all.

Ventalation is an issue, it is vented on one side of the vally, but not the other.
But the Ice is definatly not backed up 6'. It is backed up maybe 4 feet, maybe 5.

I would think it was possible to be a installer error, like a tear in the I&W but it's doing the exact same thing on each side of the vally.

J-Peffer

No gutters on the house at all.

Ventalation is an issue, it is vented on one side of the vally, but not the other.
But the Ice is definatly not backed up 6'. It is backed up maybe 4 feet, maybe 5.

I would think it was possible to be a installer error, like a tear in the I&W but it's doing the exact same thing on each side of the vally.

The home owners said the prior roof always leaked in the same manner as well.

I really think the only option here could be to use heat tape in the winter. I know they are not going to want to tear out a ceiling to put in baffles.

Grumpy

Naaa probably a condensation problem. Inspect the attic and make sure there is enough ventilation. Did you replace just what vents were there or did you cut in additional? You may want to cut in additional just depending on if you have enough or not. Also is there a kitchen or bathroom fan near by to the leak? If so is there a vent on the roof for it? If so is there a break in the flex hose in the attic carrying the moisuture from the fan to the vent?

Really sounds like a condensation problem. Not a leak. Moisture will travel into the attic in the form of hot air, which carries moisture. In the winter time, if there is not enough exhaust, that moist air will condense and create water on the framing members of the roof. If it is cold enough that condensation will freeze, and it will collect and it will grow. Then one day you have a block of ice on your rafters or bottom side of your roof deck, but it didn't originate from the outside, it came from the inside. That ice block melts and the customer thinks they have a leak.

J-Peffer

I guess at this point I'll probably have to pull down some facia and sofit to ensure there is no blockage.

I want to tell these people that they really need to contact the home builder or seller about this because I don't feel anything is done wrong on the roof, every thing is to spec. We take our time when doing our work, I'm always on the site or doing the work myself. I keep a CertainTeed Applicator's Manual on the job site incase anything comes up.

Ed the Roofer

Just tell them it is an Act Of God, which is covered by their home owners insurance policy, which is specifically for these kinds of reasons.

This is NOT a Warranty related claim, if it actually is ice damming or internal condensation, which was not created due to your work supplied on their home.

Ice damming is a direct result of nature, providing the "Perfect Storm" of weather conditions, which are exasperated by the buiding structures climate and lack of ventilation flowage.

Now, be carefull with that last statement, because if you "Knew In Advance", that problems could arise and did not warn them in writing, you may take on the liability for not advising them correctly and specifying the correct solution.

You could also use the arguement, that cathedral/vaulted ceiling structures and their necessity to have any ventilation at all, is yet still, a widely debated topic amongs building science physists, with no universal agreement on the correct solution for all circumstances.

Ed

J-Peffer

I'm really dreading telling them these kinds of things I would take the hit to just fix it for them, but it's no simple solution.

They did never tell me that the roof had problems in that area prior to doing the roof though. The guy is a real nice guy, soft spoken and hard working. I think the wife might be next to him on the phone with a stick though.

I was going to highlight a few things in the applicators manual, and bring that over, just explain what could be happening.

Ed the Roofer

Are you a nice guy too? Or, another way of thinking about it, doesn't your family deserve to see you get paid for your work?

Nice guy, or sucker.

You can still be the nice guy by showing them that their damages and ice dam leak repair is covered under their home owners policy.

Either you screwed up, and caused the leak by poor workmanship, which you very well should be responsible for, or this is an Act Of God, insurable loss, which is the reason people have home owners insurance in the first place.

Maybe, you think that the insurance companies are nice guys too? Why should you put the financial burden on them to pay for the fiduciary responsibility they have to their contracted client, the home owner.

I am not trying to be sarcastic and ignorant, but call it as it really is, not based on personalities.

If it were minor, and not your fault, then go ahead, but by accepting responsibility, if it is not your fault, then you will be opening a lifelong can of worms every time they have an ice dam or a condensation leak.

Ed

WarnerConstInc.

What if I dont believe in god, my home owner ins. is screwed, better call them and tell them to take god out of it. on a side note: our new indiana license plates now say in god we trust, when I respectfully declined to have that posted on the back of the 'Burban, the nice old lady said "but he is the reason you and I are here" I replied "I am here because my plates are expired, and even if he was the reson you and I are here, I still dont trust him." Fastest time yet getting new plates, maybe she thought we were gonna get struck by lightening or something?

Ed the Roofer

They also use the phrase, Act Of Nature, to satisfy those that might object.

By the way, Illinois just enacted the "In God We Trust" version of license plates too.

That was passed on the same day that they struck down the mandatory "Moment Of Silence" which, Oh My God, might possibly have been abused and miscontrued as a period of religious reflection and also, so as to not waste so much valuable school time that the tax payers support.

Ed

WarnerConstInc.

Like you said Ed not much of those kind of things make much sense to anyone. Who are they trying to make happy