Total Squares For Bid? How Do You Guys Come Up With Your Total?

Ed the Roofer

How do most of you guys calculate the grand total of squares you are calculating when preparing a proposal.

With mine, for instance in todays sale, I had the following:

24.84 squares actual measurements, rounded to 25 squares.

119 feet of eave edge
169 feet of rake edge
68 feet of valleys
This comes out to 12.49 bundles, rounded to 4 1/3rd squares

Additional waste factor of 1 2/3rds squares was randomly thrown in for good measure.

Total for calculations for price wound up for me as 31 squares even.

This was for a 10/12 pitch, gable style structure, on a 2 story home with an attached one story garage with a one layer 3-tab tear-off on a 12 year old home.



I just want to see how many squares, from those measurements, any of you guys would have used for your calculations.

I use that square count for my tear-off and my installation numbers.

I have seen that insurance companies do not list a line item for tearing off the eave edge starter shingles and for the rake edge bleeder strip starter shingles, so their tear-off figures are drastically smaller than mine, especially on the tear-off portion of the job.

I also have seen other companies square counts significantly different than mine, but I measure them exact to the inch with a 100 foot tape measure, so, except for me rounding up figures to the next even foot mark in my calculation field, my figures at first are dead on correct.

Ed

johnk

Yeah,just like you said Are you counting your starter rows in the square count?I don't do that but sounds good to me.

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dougger222

You are right Ed no insurance companies pay for tearing off or putting on starter or "bleeder" shingles. What they do though is add a 10% waste factor for gable roofs and a 15% waste factor for hip roofs. Most insurance companies pay R&R for ridge with laminate shingles and some do for 3 tab shingles. I would say less than half pay ridge with three tabs. I've joked around with adjusters about that subject. "Well the ridge aren't going to just jump off the roof into the dump trailer. They have to be torn off just like the rest of the shingles".

I had one adjuster insist that the fart box's were ok to re-use on the 7 year old roof. I should have sent him the three fart boxes I replaced due to rust. Of course they all claim to have been roofers at some point, so they know.

On hip roofs with a 15% waste factor say on a 50 square roof is what? 7.5 squares. If my crew wasted even half that on a 50 square roof they would never hear the end of it. Certainteed says on hip roofs 50 squares and bigger 15% waste is a lot. I think the 10% or 15% waste factor has the starter shingles sort of built into it. Running laminate shingles really cuts down on waste.

What I do is add the drip edge and gutter apron together and divide by 75 to get the amount of starter bundles I need. For starters and ridge I figure three bundles per square.

For your job Ed I would say,
24.84 sq off
27.32 sq on (gable roof)
28.57 sq on (hip roof).
At least that is what I would charge an insurance company.

As far as ordering I would order,
26 1/3 sq for a gable roof
27 1/3 sq for a hip roof
4 bundles of starters (installed up rakes)
2 rolls of valley flashing (50ft)
14 sticks of gutter apron (10ft)
18 sticks of drip edge (12ft)
Ridge?
Turtle Vents or Ridge Vent?
Water and Ice?
Felt?
Plumbing vents, exhaust vents, chimneys, heating stacks, step flashing, antennas, satelites, etc???

But I'd have to see it in person and walk it off with my tape measure and pitch reader!!!

Last year I had a few of jobs that when we were done I loaded up a partial bundle of shingles, starters, and ridge into the pick up. I'd rather be a square over than a square under. I hate being short on materials. Like when I go fishing I like to bring two of everything.

How many of you have done two layer tear offs and had to tear off two layers of ridge? That stinks and no insurance companies pay for tearing off both layers, just the top one IF they pay at all.

I think you are on the right track Ed and think deeper than most roofers.

tinner666

Same as you Ed. I just do round figures, then talley, in myhead starters, etc, by my measurements, add a sq. for every 100' ridge. ( When I measure for one. Ins. cos. don't like me or my prices. )

I'd rather do slate anyway, even if I don't know anything about them.

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Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

Slyfox

I measure eaves and rakes for drip edge/ eave flashing and get my starter strips off that,
288' eave/rake = 1 1/3 squ 3-tabs " approx- 78 liniel feet per bundle"
119' ridge = 1 1/3 squ 3-tabs " approx- 33 liniel feet per bundle"
Far as valleys go i will square off the sections stopping right at the valley and than guestimate by courses high and rows wide.

Far as insurance companies not paying for second layer of tear off,
thats not so every where because i have done several and always been paid additionaly for them.
Maybe a State thing.

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A W Smith

I add in Lineal foot of ridge separate, And my starter is now gaf elk. I tally up all my materials including felt I&W turtle vents or ridge roll and pipe flanges. And my labor I also pay my subs for LF of ridge applied and torn off. Total the two and then add OH and Profit. and that is my bid. I usually come within two bundles on a 30 square roof. I add 1 1/2 feet of coverage per lineal foot for hips and Vally's for waste. I usually throw in the drip edge. I had one sub 12 years ago that asked me if i paid for drip edge labor. Not if I'm bending it. Which i do out of leftover coil.

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http://www.awsmith.com

dougger222

I was getting at the insurance companies not paying for R&R of ridge on say a two layer tear off were the second roofer failed to tear off the ridge. If an insurance company failed to pay for tearing off a second layer of shingle they need to find a "good" insurance company.

Ed the Roofer

Just so you guys know where I was going with this, for example, Dougger came up with:
24.84 sq off
27.32 sq on (gable roof) for his bid.

On mine, the job was bid at 31 square off and 31 square on.

I was just showing an example of how far off any of us can be in our bidding, even when the same figures are used.

I sold that job yesterday for $ 10,522.00 plus extra for the actual cost of the permit fee, which I always pick up.

So, when someone asks; "How Much Do You Charge Per Square?" The answer always will be different based on the total amount of squares bid.

By the way, that job I specified at the beginning of this post had 1 full roll of Grace Ice and Water Shield for all of the eave edges, including the garage and Shingle Vent II for all of the ridge line measurements, including te garage also. I use 30 # felt for the rest of the decking. It has the aliminum fascia with that 90* bend outward, so I will not be installing any ODE gable/rake edge flashing and the gutter hangers are screwed through the existing gutter apron drip edge, so no need for that either.

I also have discovered that a house with valley, even when they are a gable roof, has nearly as much of a waste factor as a hip roof.

I calculate my starter shingles with this formula. Every 80 feet of eave edge and also of rake edge equals 1/3 square for bidding purposes.

Every 30 feet of either hip or ridge equals 1/3 square also.

Every 11 feet of valley equals 1/3 square too.

Ed

Slyfox

OOPS, sorry i misread what you had said.

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Slyfox

I use GAF/ELK starter strips also but couldn't remember the liniel footage per bundle so used the 3-tab example.

I don't like thier ridge caps tho, they are way to flimsey at the self sealer/nailer area and tend to split on me alot, you have this problem also?

Paying subs or employees, cost per squ includes labor for starters, caps,
drip edge, step flashings,
ridge vents/pot vents "does not include cutting the deck" and shingles.

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Slyfox

I was at 28 squ with out the valley, but for me to calulate that i would need a better visual so not sure what my total would be.

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dougger222

Ed,

At 31 squares with a contract price of $10,522.00 plus permit it looks to me as though you are charging around $340 per square if you look at it that way.

Is the whole roof a 10/12? House and garage? The house is two stories?

If I didn't always bid for insurance and had to have 10-20 line items per estimate I would do it your way Ed. Makes the most sense because it's adding up all the shingles needed for the roof. This is how I invoice for new construction. I do more new roofs than out of pocket tear offs though. Insurance work is about 90% of the work I do. It's been that way going on the third year now.

Yesterday my wife and I was watching a HGTV program were they did a roof. What impressed me was it was only two guys doing the roof, it showed the one guy bringing two bundles of paper wrapped Landmarks up the ladder at once. What didn't impress me was they were going right over three tabs.

If you do a hip roof with an equal valley adjacent to it you can have next to no waste if running laminate shingles. With three tabs you will have more waste than with laminate shingles on a hip roof.

I charge about $4 per foot for valleys and $3 per foot for ridge. Even though it's not in the square off or square on price I'm getting paid for it. The more valleys on a house the more I get paid. Same goes for ridge if the insurance company pays for it.

Ed the Roofer

The sad thing, is that many contractors are still at or under $200.00 per square in comparison.

I wish they would learn true costing methods, but they are too scared to possibly lose a job by increasing their prices.

By the way, the way I determine valley waste is based on the most waste possible in reality.

2/3 of the first shingle goes past the valley from the 1st side and 1/3 of the shingle coming in from the other side goes past and gets cut off/ That is a full shingle of waste per course.

27 shingles per bundle at 5" exposure = 135" which translates to 11' 3" actually. I just use 11' as my valley divider to make the math easier.

Ed

AaronB.

Thats a trade secret.

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PlainPainter

I think most roofers in my area overestimate the amount of squares by a factor of 2. I have gone out to 3 customers with 2000sq.ft homes - at best each floor is a 1000sq.ft - see where I am going with this? So they tell me the other roofers are bidding so and so per square, and they have 20 squares. Seems like a reasonable estimate - they want to know how much per square I bid. So I go out and each case, each home has at best 10 square of actual roofing. Now maybe since there were 2 layers to rip - they counted them twice? Who knows, but even their $200/sq is really $400.

dougger222

I've got a stubborn adjuster right now for an insurance company I like (who I have).

She is at 15.04sq off I'm at 15.23 sq on
She is at 15.66sq on I'm at 17.51 sq on, it's a four sided hip roof.

We're dead on with drip edge, ridge, and turtle vents.

She has the three plumbing vents written as pvc vents when in fact they are the lead two piece vents. She forgot to add in the two exhaust vents also.

We had a little argument this morning which ended in her hanging up on me! She said she had the two vents figured in with the turtle vents. I said wait the diagram is in front of me shows three turtle vents on the back and two on sides equals five turtle vents plus two exhaust vents! I told her exactly were the two vents were on the roof as I had them on my diagram. She started getting mad at this point and said she needed pictures to pay but wasn't going to pay for the dumpster then (I told her I had a dump trailer). Then I said just pay the $48.XX per square for tearing off with removal and who cares how they leave the property. She can't do that though.

She kept saying she can find a bunch of contractors to do it for her numbers and she could send out another adjuster (she said the name of a contractor) and they will come up with less money then her estimate. I told her the home owners agent gave him my name and number I didn't go to him for the work he came to me via our agent.

The home owner is very mad at her too. She first came to the house which had a roof replaced in 98 from hail and said no hail and the shingles could be replaced were the tree hit it. She then took pictures of the detached garage roof with very bad shingles and sent them to the insurance underwriter and said they won't insure it until the shingles are replaced. I pulled off a shingle and she sent it in and without calling the home owner approved replacement and just sent a check, no phone call.

roofwiz74

I wait to go by and give an estimate,look at your bids and go from there with my figures.thanks for measuring guys.

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Ed the Roofer

If you already have an agreed upon contract, either verbal or written, with the home owner, that adjuster is tenasciously bordering on "Interference With A Contract" and you could press that issue with her and see if she backs off. Also, send her the digital photos and tell her to stuff them where the sun don't shine.

Ed