Torch Down(flat Roof) Leaks BAD...can You Give Advice ASAP?

Detail Guy

My dad(lives in California) came back to his hometown in October(Mattoon) and purchased a res. property for an investment in Illinois(my home town as well)to sell or maybee rent.

He hired a "freind of the family" for the "cheap price" to do a small 20x20 flat roof area on top (used to dump coal through shute from the top of roof for heating the house in the old days)top of a pitched roof on this house.

Well...it leaked bad during the first thunderstorm(blowing rain) we had...so we called the guy back to fix the leak...he said he "thought" the blowing rain was bouncing off the pitched roof below and was being driven up under the Alum. roof edge he installed on the flat roof above...

...so,we relied on his "experience in the biz" when he suggested & we agreed to have him install some additional alum.flashing for $120 extra labor & n/c for material(left over white coil stock) & seal with some "$12 a tube" waterproof caulking under the roof edge to stop this leak.We/he thought this would solve this leak....

....but,the next hard rain we had caused it to leak again BAD(same spot)...so,I called him back AGAIN TO FIX IT!...he was "surprised" & just applied some more of this caulking material to the edge of the torch down roofing material were it was leaking at...and said that should do it..but,I wanted to make sure this time for sure,not wait for another rain(were spending $30,000 on a complete remodel on the interior,drywall has already been installed,close to being ready for me to paint interior)We can't afford anymore leaks to happen at this point in this project...

....so I tested it by spraying a garden hose on the leaking area & the rest of flat roof area...it did'nt leak anymore after doing that(so far)....he said thats all he gonna do to it,its sealed ...and got pissed at my questioning his work and wanting him to redo the job right...as the other "experienced" roofing companies said it should be done...he walked off the jobsite...saying he was gonna call my dad...and "cut out the miidle man"(me)...it almost became a fight between us in the front yard...but,he just ended up leaving the hose stuck on the roof...took his ladder down...and said tough chit,get the hose down yourself...and left like the un-professional roofer he really was...then,I CALLED around to get some opinions on this roof/leak problem....

....THEY ALL said he should'nt have used alumin. roof edge(they said it causes wrinkling to it from the heat or not enough heat was used to bond the roof mater. to roof edge),but THEY ALL SAID he should of used 26 gage steel(primed) as the metal edge....plus he did'nt wrap the roof mater. over the edge correctly and torch it down properly...he just cut it off even with the edge of roof(as my dad requested him to do,but my dad did'nt know the correct process,he just did'nt like the look of the black exposed roofing material wrapped over edge you could see from the street veiw)...so the roofer said(trying to please my dad) he could do it that way and make it work....but,turns out it was barely stuck in some spots(torched) to alumin roof edge...with the alum. roof edge placed UNDER the top layer of torch down product..not as manufact. specs require and to place on top of roof material with steel edge,then use 10" min.flashing material & torch down over top of steel edge...to seal it down properly.

My question is:

....who's at fault with this leak?...my dad or him?....should he of told my dad this is'nt the way he wants to do it,and refused to do it that way? or just "try to please the customer"...hoping he could make it work out(even though he after the leak,he admitted he's never done it like that before in the 6-7 flat roofs he done in so far,and wrapped it over edge) and what sould we do about it now?

Any suggestions from anybody experienced in this torch down product?...from reading past post on this site...sounds like GRUMPY is the man to ask...along with a few others....please help us out,if you can !!!!

Frustrated,

from Mattoon, Illinois

Grumpy

Oh boy friend of the family, not a state licensed roofer I bet. Cheap price? You get what you pay for... but you already knew that.

If this is a torch roof he shouldn't be using 0.19 coil stock. Aluminum heats up and warps from the heat of the flame. At very least he should be using .032 heavy duty aluminum, but even that will wrinkle. Preferrably steel should be used. (I see you agree after I read further) Why would you pay him extra to do what he should have done right in the first place?

Did your Dad install the roof or tell this guy how to install the roof? If not Did your dad say I want aluminum edge flashing and say I want you to improperly adhere the modified bitumen? If your dad didn't request these things, it's not his fault. The only way this can be your Dad's fault is not by performing his due diligence before hiring an unqualified contractor.

Typically at an edge I fold my roof field membrane over the edge about 3" and nail it down to the face. Then I install my edge flashing on top of that which hides the folded over membrane. Then I install at least a 10" strip, usually 18", of the same membrane over top of the edge flashing and adhered to the membrane. When installing an asphalt based roof, such as modified bitumen, it is important to first clean and apply asphalt primer to the metal before trying to adhere the membrane.

Grumpy

Pictures. Can you post pictures?

Detail Guy

Thanks for the quick reply Grumpy....I know you ALWAYS get what you pay for...but my dad made the decision to pick this "kid"...he was a freind of my cousin,back when he was little & was refered by my brother-laws siding co. thats been in the biz for 50+ years(3rd generation co.)...

.....so,my dad relied on that fact to choose him....turns out it was'nt the right choice...he knows that now but,he only paid about $600 for the original job+$120 extra for the additional work he did with the extra flashing to "try" to fix the leak the first time.

So..he said he's not gonna get too worked up about this guy(not worth it)....just figures he will pay AGAIN to have some other "qualified" roofer to repair the work,or do it over again.But,if it were my money...this guy would be in court to explain himself to the judge...and refund the cost of the job+ my expenses to collect it...plus everybody in our small rual community would know this story & this guys name...so he would'nt rip anybody else off again,EVER!!!! I thought about telling my brother-law about this guy,but he sold his part of the co. and has moved on to a better paying job...so he probally could care less...but his brother is still the sole owner of this siding co.,and might not feel the same way about a guy that was refered by his co....that did such a unprofessional thing to a family member...

....this "kid" also installs sunrooms for this siding co. with his dad...so,maybee they might have a chat with him,IF they knew this story.

My QUESTION is: Should I tell this siding co. he works for...what he did to us OR just forget it & move on like my dad suggested he's gonna do???

AaronB.

The moral answer can only be found within yourself as to tell on him or not.

The roofing answer....grrumpy explained it well, but I think aluminum shouldnt be used for the perimeter edge no matter the guage because you just cannot heat it enough without wrinkling to ensure a tight bond.

Hope this helps.

__________________
http://www.roseroofing.net/
Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality!
Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

Detail Guy

tried to post pics of this roof...but forum note said you must have 10 or more post to be able to post URL from other sites....anybody have this prob...if so..why is this the rule here at this site...seams stupid to me...oh well...seven more post to go until i can post a pic...HELP?

Detail Guy

thanks Aaron B. FOR YOUR REPLY....I agree u should use a steel edge,NOT alum edge of any gage thickness...as per manuf. specs require,would'nt that void the warranty of the product anyways,if you did?

As far as the moral question of "telling" on him...that should be the least of his worries right now...he lucky he did'nt get his arse beat that day,but i'm 2 old for that stuff theese days...plus it not worth the risk of going 2 jail...he lucky...very lucky...he left when he did...otherwise it could of got out of hand,and i'd done something i'd regret later...but,as far as disgracing his reputation...oh,i plan on doing that on every chance i get...he deserves to get fired from his job(from his sunroom installer postion within the siding co he works at as well,at the very least)...and never roof again...until he gets a clue how to do it right & learn some customer relation skills...right???

SIX MORE POST TO GO...till i can post some pics...crazy rule in my opinion...why????

AaronB.

Anti-spamming measures.

Maybe he is good at sunrooming and siding...but it doesnt have anything to do with roofing.

__________________
http://www.roseroofing.net/
Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality!
Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

Detail Guy

Who cares if he's good at sunrooms...my point was he should be punished for doing what he did on our roofing job.He dose the roofing on his own on the side...sunroom installations is his job.Maybee if he lost his regular job,he'd think twice before doing another chitty roof job without knowing how to do it right & how to operate a business long term and realize you have to fix your mistakes/redo the job sometimes (at your cost) until it's done right...& keep your customers happy,so they tell others how they were treated good & and the job was great!!!! & don't tell everybody how they were ripped off,or you get sued and lose your assets in the process...this kid needs taught a lesson...before he dose anymore damage to others....or himself.

MOST Anybody can learn a trade with enough practice...and work for someone else...but,only a few of them have the required business skills & experience to own/operate a business over the long term(thats why over 50% business fail after start-up period) Thats why most who ONLY know trade skills and have none OR NOT ENOUGH business skills or lack enough experience in business to survive the start -up period & will fail soon after they start...

.....anybody can DO the work,but the hard part is 2 GET the work...month after month,year after year...make the phone ring,and continue to grow a business over time.I've seen tons of tradesmen who think they can start a biz...because they can do the work(even great work)...then to find out later thats the EASY part 2 do...and can't continue to get enough work and starve their biz and fail...happens all the time.

Anyways...enough venting on my part.Time to take some action on this problem...teach him a valuable lesson...NEVER screw your customer...especially this customer...if you want to stay in business !

AaronB.

Vent away!

I deal with these hacks all the time, lose work to them, struggle to compete paying living wages, make sure the men have work, do the right thing, keep a good reputation (often at a loss to my salary and not to the guys that screwed up the job), satisfy the customer, keep good equipment to do a quality roof, provide the customer with the most options to fit their needs, advise for free when you lose the job cuz they used your expertise (free estimates) and went wiht your specs and the less knowledgeable cheaper contractor, unisured "contractors", apathetic "paycheck player" employees, customers wanting the cheapest regardless of quality until it leaks, maintaining all PROPER insurance to protect the customer and myself (a million per occurence general libility insurance as well as the very expensive million dollar workman's comp),.....and so on. All to compete with every illegal crew working for cash without the additioal 51% payroll burden. Try to do this and attain health and retirement benefits for the employees...damn near impossible.

I am glad to see a kindred spirit, especially from the "other" side.

__________________
http://www.roseroofing.net/
Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality!
Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

Detail Guy

Thanks for your support...i'm glad to get your opinions on the problem we had...thanks for taking the time out of you day to respond,glad to see other REAL roofers IN THE BIZ agree with me about this "kid"....hopefully we can resolve this issue soon and finish this house up WITHOUT using anymore "unqualifeid" contactors & sell it(or rent) quickly & move on to the next project.At least a valuable lesson was learned with this problem....NEVER just pick the "cheapest" roofer,without doing your research on him and the correct processes & materials that should be used to do the job right...never just rely on ONE contactors opinion or trust the referals of any one co. on how the job should be done...ask around,get online,and do your homework...BEFORE you pick a roofer or any contractor for that matter....the old saying "you always get what you pay for"....was never more true in this case,to bad this lesson cost my dad $720 to learn...hopefully we wont have this problem again on the next one...at the very least,I know this "kid" will NEVER do any other work for us again...and hopefully anybody else we know.I plan on gettin the word out as much as possible about this "kid"...to save others the hassle we had with him....he deserves it in my opinion!!!!! HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!!!!

Detail Guy

COUNTDOWN TO PICS...POST #7 for me.

Detail Guy

#8 post

Detail Guy

post #8

Detail Guy

I GUESS this is #10...see if i can post some pics of the worlds worst flat roof.What a pain to post some pics!!!!

Detail Guy

Detail Guy

dont know if that worked...but i'll try one more pic...wish me luck...help?

Detail Guy

Detail Guy

Please let me know if theese pics posted(can't tell on my computer,i have virus or something,won't let me see them)...and what you think,if it did.

PS...any advice on easy way to post pics here(like copy & paste them)...it wont let me do that...i HAD TO MANULLY type in URL of pic...it was a pain(i'm a rookie at this,as you can tell..HELP!!!)

Grumpy

Nothing posted.