Timberline 30 Year Shingles

 
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:24 AM   #1
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Timberline 30 Year Shingles


I generally use T-30 as a standard on all my roofs, but I want to upgrade to the 40 year timberline do think it is worth it?? What are your opinions on say the lifetime of a 30 or 40 year timberine shingle in Florida with #30 Felt....
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:15 PM   #2
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


I dont like the T-40 because of the lack of a shadow line. I price either T-30 or upgrade T-Ultra.
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Old 12-20-2006, 07:53 PM   #3
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


I do not think the 40 year is worth a penny more than the 30 year. The 50 year/lifetimes are a little bit nicer but really I still don't think they are worth the extra $$$. We all know none of these roofs will last 30 years.

However since you said Florida, I know the lifetimes have a much higher wind rating, something like 110 MPH, so that changed the dynamic of my answer since I am not in FL.
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Old 12-31-2006, 04:34 PM   #4
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


In my own experience, I feel you are doing a dis-service to all of you potential clients by only force feeding them the One shingle choice that you prefer.

All varieties of shingles have there own pros and cons to them. A roofing job done incorrectly ; ie. inadequate Intake and Exhaust ventilation, is not worth the paper the warranty is written on. Industry averages show that most roofs need replacement between 12-15 years, even though they may be a 25 year warranted product. That does not mean that they all get replaced at that time period. Other studies show up to 19.8 functional years in the Chicago area. Statistics can conjur up any result you are trying to relay.

The best scenario for you as the contractor is to not limit the choices offered to your customers. Do the Good-Better-Best, and increase your margins by letting them have more options to choose from.

Do a life-cycle costing on each of the 3 categories offered to show the actual or perceived value of each category. You will find a substantial decrease in the cost per month of the 50 year product vs the 25-30 year products, even with higher % profit factored in for the upgrades.

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Old 01-01-2007, 10:46 AM   #5
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


We don't offer Timberlines. We install them and we are the professionals. Why give a homeowner who knows very little, a choice. I feel Landmarks are the best and that is what we use. I don't see Sears selling Husky Tools. Why would I offer, what I think, is an inferrior product.
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Old 01-01-2007, 10:57 AM   #6
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


Each contractor will probably prefer one brand over another, either due to price, manufacturer standing behind their product better than others, a good relationship with the rep or supplier, or just a better feel for that particular brand.

What I suggest then, is to offer the Landmark 30s, 50s, and one of the super heavy-weights such as the Landmark TLs or Centennial Slate or Carriage House etc. Each upgrade at a higher profit margin than the previous offering.

If you do not offer a premium product and justify the reason why it might be a good fit and reasonibly justify its benefits, you definitely will not be able to sell it, thereby leaving money on the table.

Just a suggestion.

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Old 01-17-2007, 07:14 AM   #7
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


I was having a water heater installed and discussed the 6 yr. vs. the 12 yr. warrantee water heaters. And he told me that he asked the company rep if the tank was thicker or if there were more sacrifical anode rods in the 12 yr. warrantee tank - and he was told they were exactly the same thing. You are just paying an extra 100 bucks for an extended warrantee. Basically their accountants and staticians are figuring out the 'sweet' spot in terms of life, extra profit vs. how many people will actually call them on a 12 yr. warrantee 10 years after installation. Not to mention the great turnover rate in real estate!

so it got me wondering - I have not noticed any difference in timberline 30 or 40 yr. shingles. Could this be the same thing? Who is going to call the manufacturer on their warranty 33 years later? I don't see it happening - at least not enough for them to lose money. The very top of line GAF shingle I do see a difference. I just install 30 years unless they want those extremely high priced shingles.
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Old 01-17-2007, 11:40 AM   #8
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


If you only offer one level of the product, you may be missing out on some sales.

The homeowner should be given the option on which manner they would like to invest their money.

Just some advise, you can have 3 differet choices to close the sale, but you are limiting yourself if you offer only your one preferred choice.

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Old 01-18-2007, 10:47 AM   #9
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


ed you are a certainteed man aren't you?I recognize your sales procedure.
I agree completely.I like to have a little bit of everything to offer.color has alot to with it.many times I will have some choose just because they had the right shade of brown or gray.Mostly the gaf's and certainteed's.every now and then some tamko and elk's.
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Old 01-18-2007, 11:20 AM   #10
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


The thread sort of begs a question - when you upsell say from timberline 30 to 40 year shingles. Do you actually charge more than the difference in cost? I have been confronted by homeowners after they signed a contract to paint their home and then decided to go for a higher quality of paint - and then offered to pay me the difference in materials. Which worked to be something like $7 per can multiplied by 9 cans or $63 - wooppee! I instantly felt cheated, especially if the paint job lasts like 40% with the better paint. So I told them a different paint has different characteristics, like brush drag and that will increase labor another 40% and said it would be a 4 grand upgrade.
But yeah I feel if there is a difference in quality - that I should share in the profit - otherwise what's the incentive for me to put something better than 30 yr. shingles, knowing that roof won't come back to the 'market' for a reshingle for an additional 10 years?
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Old 01-18-2007, 12:39 PM   #11
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


RoofWiz,

I try to absorb as much information from whatever source I can. Certainteed for many years has been at the forefront of contractor and homeowner educational sources. They have been putting on seminars for years and offer upgraded contractor credentials without a requirement that you must purchase XX $ of their product as some other manufacturers. Gibralters Air Vent, formerly a subsidiary of Certainteed, also has maintained excellent ventilation seminars, which in turn enhance business profitability.

GAF, on the other hand supposedly has purchasing requirements tied in with being a rated contractor by them.. That begs the question: Are you only a qualified roofing contractor if you install their products - I think not. I would be willing to attend their C.A.R.E seminars in Michigan City, but have had no response regarding upcoming offerings.

I have attended conferences put out by Richared Kaller (RIP) when he had his own gig C.E.S., contractor educational series. I also read as much as possible from archived CCN, certified contractors network educational q & a forums by contractors who have succesfully gone through the ups & downs of contracting.

These seminars usually were sponsored by Certainteed and/or various roofing supply houses. I strongly appreciate the lessening of a school of hardknocks learning curve they have provided.

With that being said, my 3 manufacturer choices in order of preference are, Tamko Heritage 30's & 50's, Certainteed Independance and Landmark 50s, and Elk Capstone and Prestique 50's.

Tamko has been exceptionally honorable in the past regarding 2 old warranty issues and how they took care of the situation in everybodies favor. Certainteed has my regards for the extensive educational experiences. Due to loyalty issues, those 2 are my selections offered most commonly.

Regarding upgrading for only material cost, you would be operating at a loss. For every dollar spent, their is a per centage of your business that is affected. For a higher dollor amount contract, there also is higher risk factor if you were to not get paid. Proper business sense dictates that each upgraded product, whether reality-warranty level, or snob appeal aesthetics command a higher rate of return. Why else would some pay additional for a 12 yr vs. 6 yr hot water heater otherwise, although I am speculating that there actually are some intangible differences in that product that the technician just was not aware of or chose not to share with you.

Ed

Last edited by Ed the Roofer; 01-18-2007 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:53 AM   #12
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


Plainpainter...I don't understand HOW you can have the balls to charge someone 40% more for a job for an increase of 60 some odd dollors of better paint. That's pretty much beyound any reason.
If I put out a bid for new construction inter painting...and I supply the paint.
You bid the job on sqft....I don't care if I gave you the $30 bucket from HD or a higher grade paint. If you came back and wanted 40% more for the job, because I gave you better paint...I'd send you packing.
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Old 02-13-2007, 09:54 AM   #13
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


Quote:
Originally Posted by PlainPainter View Post
The thread sort of begs a question - when you upsell say from timberline 30 to 40 year shingles. Do you actually charge more than the difference in cost?
We obviously sharge them our cost then we add our markup. If the price for material is higher then obviously our cut is higher.

For example we mark up labor and materials at LEAST 35% on shingle roof. So let's say you are pay $40 a square for 30 year's and $50 a square for 40 year's (just tossing numbers out). SO my markup on the 30 years are: $14, and my markup on the 40 years is: $17.5.

Factor in another variable however. The 40 years are thicker and heavier than the 30 years which means production WILL be a tad bit slower. Also you will go through more blades since the blades will have more wear and tear cutting the thicker shingles, so we add just a wee bit for labor, maybe another $3-5 for labor.

So the short answer is Yes. we charge more.

Now let's talk special order materials... I mark up an additional 10% on ALL special order materials because I always order an extra 10%. I'm not really making much extra here, BUT I am buying an extra 10% for waste just incase we made a mistake on our measuring (nothing is worse than having to wait 3 weeks for a few bundles of special order shingles to finish a $10,000 job, been there done that.). So if you think about it, since I am marking up all materials 35%, and adding 10% of materials I am really marking up special orders an extra 3.5% (10% of 35%). I hope that doesn't confuse anyone.


If the customer wants to provide materials I double markup my labor or walk away from the job. That's just a sign of problems to come anyways. I need to make at least $X per day no matter who buys materials.
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:44 PM   #14
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


Quote:
Originally Posted by RooferJim View Post
I dont like the T-40 because of the lack of a shadow line. I price either T-30 or upgrade T-Ultra.
best warranty in the roofing industry

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I agreee with you.
gia
http://www.timberlineshingles.org
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Old 12-09-2011, 01:09 PM   #15
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


What is with that website link. I can't understand the poorly written article.
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Old 12-09-2011, 04:40 PM   #16
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


FWIW.... when I worked for a wholesale roofing-siding-window distributor, we stocked GAF, OC, Certainteed, Tamko and when needed due to a large storm, Elk. Out of those, Certainteed was by FAR the most contractor friendly. They have yearly round table sessions called Professional Roofers Advisory Councils. They would bring in 20-30 of the areas roofing contractors and do an all day "round table" discussion on what problems local roofers were having. It could be absolutely ANY topic the roofers wanted to talk about. From problems with CT to lead generation, compitant subs, problems with suppliers, lead generation, building profits, selling more jobs etc. In fact, the first hour of the session was soley devoted to coming up with the topics those in the room wanted to cover.

It was quite unlike what GAF offered when they came to town. It was ALL about GAF and why their programs were the best, what they required for roofers to become certified etc. Their sessions weren't about the contractors at all. Unless it was how to sell Country Manor to make more money.

As for warranty response, CT and Tamko were always very good with OC coming in a strong third. GAF it seemed was more "corporate" in how they dealt with warranty issues where CT and especially Tamko were both extremely "personal" in their approach with HO's.

To give my $0.02 to the OP's question, I would not limit myself to a single product offering unless it was an exclusive. And in shingles, that just doesn't happen. Sell what your comfortable with as an "everyday" choice, but don't limit yourself to other products and manufacturers out there.

A lot of customers buy shingles because they like how they look. Even though all the brands have pretty much the same color blends, they can be very different in how they drop the blends on the shingle and most especially how they handle the shadow band. All of which can make a huge difference in how the shingle looks on the roof.
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Old 12-09-2011, 05:07 PM   #17
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamm5144 View Post
What is with that website link. I can't understand the poorly written article.
I am not having to speak the engrish today. Carry on with your honorable informative very post.
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Old 12-09-2011, 06:25 PM   #18
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

Regarding upgrading for only material cost, you would be operating at a loss.

Ed
I agree 100%. We did my clean up guy's parents house, they asked about the upgrade price on premium landmarks.

I called ABC, then told them 35 a sq more for the material and 10 more for the labor. They wanted to know why I charge more for labor. I said your roof is 27 sq, standard landmarks that equalls 81 bundles. Premium landmarks that equalls 108 bundles. 27 more bundles to unload, stack, spread out, open, and install. They said, that's understandable then and went with the premiums.
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:17 PM   #19
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteW&D View Post
FWIW.... when I worked for a wholesale roofing-siding-window distributor, we stocked GAF, OC, Certainteed, Tamko and when needed due to a large storm, Elk. Out of those, Certainteed was by FAR the most contractor friendly. They have yearly round table sessions called Professional Roofers Advisory Councils. They would bring in 20-30 of the areas roofing contractors and do an all day "round table" discussion on what problems local roofers were having. It could be absolutely ANY topic the roofers wanted to talk about. From problems with CT to lead generation, compitant subs, problems with suppliers, lead generation, building profits, selling more jobs etc. In fact, the first hour of the session was soley devoted to coming up with the topics those in the room wanted to cover.

It was quite unlike what GAF offered when they came to town. It was ALL about GAF and why their programs were the best, what they required for roofers to become certified etc. Their sessions weren't about the contractors at all. Unless it was how to sell Country Manor to make more money.

As for warranty response, CT and Tamko were always very good with OC coming in a strong third. GAF it seemed was more "corporate" in how they dealt with warranty issues where CT and especially Tamko were both extremely "personal" in their approach with HO's.

To give my $0.02 to the OP's question, I would not limit myself to a single product offering unless it was an exclusive. And in shingles, that just doesn't happen. Sell what your comfortable with as an "everyday" choice, but don't limit yourself to other products and manufacturers out there.

A lot of customers buy shingles because they like how they look. Even though all the brands have pretty much the same color blends, they can be very different in how they drop the blends on the shingle and most especially how they handle the shadow band. All of which can make a huge difference in how the shingle looks on the roof.
I've been to a few of the "round table" meetings. You talk about everything including why the shingles are so expensive to problems with certain materials. You get a nice lunch and then they start mailing you polo's. I've got 6 or 7...
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Old 12-10-2011, 08:58 AM   #20
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Re: Timberline 30 Year Shingles


One of the projects I'm on, the GC took a sample off the roof to the manuacturer to try and match the shingle.

We did the origional job 8 years ago. The supplier told him "these shingles are about half done, you may get 6 more years out of them"

He didn't tell them how old the shingles were.

They are 30 year shingles. Ya right, what a scam.

I think the acid rain is wrecking havock on shingles. And other things.

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