shingles sliding off, found reason, advice sought - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

mlandman · 11-27-2004, 12:50 PM

Hi,

We had our home built in July 2000, in NH. We have a good relationship w/ the builder, and overall thought he did a good job. He lives nearby, and is building a house for himself in our neighborgood.

Our shingles are sliding off. Found the reason why: they are the type that a sheet of shingles have two layers, glued together a bit in the middle where the 2 layers of the single sheet of shingles overlap. Where that overlap is, there is a white line where the nails are supposed to go.

As you can guess by now, that's not where the roofing contractor nailed them. They are nailed about 2 inches or more 'above' that line, which only goes through the 'upper' layer of the sheet of shingles, not the place where the upper and lower layer of the single sheet 'overlap' (white line). Nevermind the fact that there are only 3 nails per sheet (should be 4) -- that's probably not THAT big of a deal. But the fact that the sheet isn't nailed together where it is supposed to be, IS a big deal because....

The 'single sheet' is separating. They're only held together with some adhesive/tar, and clearly over 4 years or so, that adhesive loses its quality. But, that's probably ok, because there should be 4 nails holding them together. However, since they're nailed 2 inches higher than they're supposed to be, they are NOT held together. What's worse, is that when you nail down a row of shingles, then another row higher on the roof above that, the 'higher' row of shingles (when nailed on the white line) should also pierce the row of shingles below it. Well, since the contractor nailed 2 inches above the white line, the nail of the top row of shingles is nailing the lower row of shingles directly on the top of that row, sometimes right on the edge, (instead of 2 inches lower than the top edge of that bottom row).

In case the description above wasn't clear enough:

problem (1): a single sheet of shingles is not nailed right:

--------------------------------
|
| X X X
|--white line should nail here----
|
|
--------------------------------

for the row that says: "white line should nail here" -- that's where there is a inch or more where the 'top half' of this single sheet of shingles overlaps (glue/tar) with the 'bottom half' of this single sheet of shinges. Instead, they nailed where the 'X' is, which is a couple inches above that overlapping area. Hence, only the top half of the shingles is pierced. The adhesive is now failing (which probably isn't made to last forever), and the bottom half is sliding away from the top half, *because it isn't nailed right*.

problem (2): top 'row' of sheets now doesn't properly hold 'lower' row of sheets. This is different than the problem above in that we are describing 2 ROWS of entire sheets, whereas the problem above was describing 1 single sheet.

------------------
|sheet1 higher on roof
|-top of sheet 2, UNDER sheet 1
| where sheet 1 should be nailed
|
---------------
|sheet2 lower on roof
|
|
--------------------

Sheet 2 is nailed to roof (also incorrect, as per problem 1, but we'll ignore that for a sec).

Sheet 1 OVERLAPS sheet 2. (i.e. sheet 1 is a new row of sheets, higher on roof).

Sheet 1 SHOULD be nailed on it's white line, which would go through both layers of sheet 1 (i.e. problem 1, above), ***AND*** go through sheet 2 about 2 inches AWAY FROM THE TOP OF SHEET 2.

INSTEAD, since sheet 1 is also nailed a couple inches too high, it's nail goes directly through the TOP EDGE of sheet 2. Literally, the nail is right on the edge, so that when the sheets fall to the ground (as a couple have), you can see a SEMI circle at the TOP of the sheet, where only HALF of the nail from the row above it, pierced it.

********

OK. Now to my problem. How should I proceed? Clearly it's not the shingles' fault, it's the workmanship by the subcontractor. I have a good relationship (not great, but friendly). I obviously intend to discuss openly with him and not do anything silly involving lawyers, etc.... yet. He has been good and I *suspect* he'll take care of this.

However, what should I demand here, and what rights do I have if he shies away from it? I don't think he had a warantee covering things like this. Is he legally bound to replace here, or could he take a tough stance and have legal ground to stand on?

It's a big house. I don't have 10-25K to have this done myself, for a new roof. His cost would certainly not be trivial either, which may give him an incentive to try and get out of this. I suspect he'll offer to have his general handyman come over and replace the ones that have fallen off. The problem is that it's quite clear that there is NO way this roof will last me 25-30 years, half the shingles will be down over the next 3 years.

Any recommendations on how I should proceed with him? Left him a message and I suspect he'll swing out here in the next day or two to see what I'm talking about. Looking to tread the right line of professional courtesy, especially w/ someone I'm friendly with..... and yet insure that I'm going to get what I deserve here.

Thanks. FYI, my email address @ company I work for has a very aggressive spam filter, so if you respond via email, I likely won't get it.

mlandman · 11-27-2004, 04:55 PM

talked to someone else today who said it doesn't matter if it's nailed on the white line or not.... that it SHOULD be perfectly fine to nail a couple inches above the white line (and therefore NOT where the two halves of the same sheet 'overlap') ---- and that the adhesive should keep those two halves together forever.

Opinions?

Thanks,

-mike

Mike Finley · 11-27-2004, 05:00 PM

If you guys are as good friends as you think you are he will probably be offering to tear off the roof and do it over again according to the shingle manufacturers specifications as soon as possible. I can't see how your shingle warranty isn't voided and basicially this all comes down to faulty workmanship. I guess I am wrong when I thought just about everybody was bright enough to be able to nail a shingle on a roof properly, I figured the hard part would be threading a valley or doing the venting correctly.

As far as what you should want, if it was me I would want the roof torn off and replaced correctly, or the money to hire somebody else to do it.

Grumpy · 11-27-2004, 05:05 PM

Well I did not read past the first few paragraphs of your first post, because that's a habit of mine with long posts... I did read your whole second post. It is NOT fine to NOT nail in the nailing strip, especially if it's a laminate shingle. The nailing strip is the only location where the two shingles overlap.

The manufacturer will not honor any warranty if the shingles are improperly installed.

Was this person who answered your question a REAL roofer or just a handy man?

Mike I agree infact part of my sales presentation includes "... anyone can bang up a shingle but it takes a real roofer to..." I guess I was wrong also, cuase obviously not ANYONE can bang up a roof. We have two examples. The person who first did Landman's roof and this other person he talked to that said it was Ok to high nail.

Glasshousebltr · 11-27-2004, 05:12 PM

I agree with Mlandman, I've seen shingles nailed way too high and stick out a good life time, a few inches doesn't seem too drastic, at least thats what my wife says...

You might want to check if they air nailed, they could have had the pressure too high.

Also, 4 nails is mandatory for good work.

Bob

jmorgan · 11-28-2004, 06:41 AM

High nails are NOT OK. Your roof is now trash. It needs to be redone, with min 4 nails, ALL in the nail zone.
Jim

mlandman · 11-28-2004, 07:57 AM

Hi guys, thanks for the replies, I appreciate it. (and anyone else reading the thread for the first time, I appreciate additional replies/opinions).

Let's assume that for the laminate shingles, they MUST be nailed in that zone. While I certainly will take the friendly approach with the builder and invite him over to speak to him about it, I like to know what I'm getting into ahead of time. The house is 4 years old. Any idea if he's really liable to fix it, or am I dependant on his 'doing the right thing'?

Thanks,

-mike

Grumpy · 11-28-2004, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasshousebltr

I agree with Mlandman, I've seen shingles nailed way too high and stick out a good life time, a few inches doesn't seem too drastic, at least thats what my wife says...

But Bob, have you taken into consideration that this will absolutely VOID the manufacturer's warranty?

PipeGuy · 11-28-2004, 11:23 AM

My experience with the assignment of culpability in the remedying of 'workmanship' defects is that if the product is not installed in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations then the installer is liable for correcting all defects - regardless of the time period elapsed between installation and discovery of the defect. Your position is enhanced by the fact that you are the original owner of the product. This does not apply in situations where the use of a product has been improperly specified for the application in which it was used.

Keep in mind that you generally do not have the right to prescribe the method by which the defect will be corrected provided, again, that it meets the manufacturer's recommendation for repair. If the builder wants to make 'repairs' in lieu of installing a new roof I suggest you require him to provide you a letter from the manufacturer stating that the full protections afforded you under the terms of the product warranty are in effect as of completion of the repairs.

Mike Finley · 11-28-2004, 01:24 PM

Nice info Pipeguy, I'm gonna print that out for future reference.

Specialist · 11-29-2004, 09:29 AM

I agree with Pipeguy. As for your post, It was clear - until you cleared it up. The first part is clear to roofers and if it isn't, then the readers don't know anything that will help you anyway.
(1) 4 nails is a must and 6 nails if it is steep or in a high wind area.
(2) They MUST be in the nailing zone.
(3) Remind your builder that these are X number of year shingles(30, 40, etc.).
(4) Remind hime that this could adversely and negatively impact his future home sales.

(5) Also -- The high nails may have allowed the shingles to flap in the wind which lead to their separating.
(6) You often use the phrase, "It is clear" or "clearly". There is nothing that is that clear in forensic investigation. The shingles could be crap. If they are, no amount of nails would have prevented them from falling apart. You can never know this because the proper procedures were not followed.
(7) This guy owes you a new roof. If he balks, tell him you are contacting an RRO or RRC member of the Roof Consultants Institute (RCI) for an unbiased opinion.
Sincerely,
Bill, RRO

Glasshousebltr · 12-03-2004, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

But Bob, have you taken into consideration that this will absolutely VOID the manufacturer's warranty?

I'm just saying I havn't seen it become a warranty problem.

Bob

Grumpy · 12-03-2004, 04:07 PM

I'm saying if you have a valid warranty claim, let's say curling... Once the manufacturer goes out and inspects they will void the warranty on the spot and say that the shingles were not properly installed... even though high nailing usually has nothing to do with curling.

Even if the shingles wern't high nailed, but only 3 nails used instead of 4. And let's say blisters start to form on the shingles. This probably has nothing to do with the lack of the 4th nail but the manufacturer will say the shingles were not properly installed. Warranty void.

Mike Finley · 12-03-2004, 04:40 PM

That's why it is so important to follow directions... that ain't no room in this business for people who throw directions away and tell you they been do it this way before you were born.

A buddy of mine used to say, all you have to be is 10% smarter than the nail you are driving in and the nail will think you are a genius.

Glasshousebltr · 12-03-2004, 05:46 PM

I just can't see 2inches too high voiding a warranty........feel free to correct me if I'm wrong........

Bob

Grumpy · 12-03-2004, 06:02 PM

You are wrong. It WILL void the warranty.

Setting the warranty issue aside for a moment. Will it matter really? In 3-tab I say no. In Architecturals I say yes. I just always do what the manufacturer says to do and I know my rear side is covered.

Glasshousebltr · 12-03-2004, 06:06 PM

I've never encountered that warranty problem.....but then again I don't nail too high.

Bob

Grumpy · 12-03-2004, 08:04 PM

In my 7 years in the business I've never had a manufacturer warranty claim.

Dakota · 12-10-2004, 03:49 AM

Here in North Dakota we have had to make a few warranty claims on our shingles, We use mainly IKO and Timberline laminate shingles. The problems we have had is when we shingle in early spring and late fall the seal strip does not take very well because of the colder weather. The next problem is it is always windy here. At any rate the shingles will blow off in high winds and the manufacture warranty covers loss of up to 80 mph. When we make a claim a shingle rep usually comes out and if you are not nailed in the nail flange they will not cover the warrany. Our IKO rep told us the shingles are enginered to be nailed in this strip and the further away you get from it the less wind load the shingles will be able to handle. They have honored every claim that we made(3-4 in the last year alone) except one and you can probably guess why not.

minnesotaroofin · 12-10-2004, 08:35 PM

A couple inches does matter i have seen it quite a few times the most common problem is shingle coming off. if your on a 6 pitch or greater nailing 2 inches high on a 3 tab or laminate every other shingle you walk on to get up to the peak will pull out not so much in warmer climates but freezing or below try to walk up a roof where every shingle is nailed high. being there is only 3 nails in the shingle i would be wiiling to bet they will curl after ten or more years 15 you will need a new roof. also any wind over 40 mph when the outside air temp is below 40 you will be replaceing shingles. this is beside the main point you already heard It voids any warranty claim. Every 3 tab will have 8 nails through it if installed correctly 4 through the shingle itself 4 through the shingles that overlap it if you nail high 2 inches you will miss the shingle underneath it. Laminates should have 10. these will stay on even if your tar line is not sealed to 80 mph per manufacure instructions.