Roofing Success International ???

jamesfl

I'm the salesman on the front line having to pitch this nonsense, I suppose if I was the owner I would look at this differently, but you still got to sleep at night.

If word ever got out that an owner was making that much off people I'd speculate that they wouldn't be doing that many more roofs in that area.

James

FLOYD

James, I am a member of RSI. I am curious as to why you think this group is such a rip off or it's members are ripping off customers. Many of the members are #1 in their market.

thom

If someone choses to sign your contract, hiring you, you didn't overcharge. Nobody made them sign. If a buyer and seller agree on a price, that's the market price. If you overprice, you're out of work. If you underprice, aside from screwing yourself, you quit because it's just not worth it.

mahlere

I have a couple of thoughts regarding this thread...we are not ESI, but have belonged to a group that is similar, and I do know guys who are ESI and PSI...no RSI guys though...but I have to believe that the basic premise is the same.

My feeling is that James a)likes to sell on price, and b)is basing his opinions on RSI on one contractor who may not really be running the system the way it's taught.

I could be wrong on both accounts, but these are my gut feelings.
I happen to agree with James when he says:
we just disagree on the mechanics of it.

I believe that providing a better life for my family and my employees is just as important as giving the HO a great deal. I'm all for taking care of the customer, I just prefer customers who are willing to pay enough to let me take care of my family and employees.

MJW

It's not the HO's responsibility to worry about your family. That is your problem. I like customers that are willing to pay enough for a good job on their house. That is what your statement should have said.

Ed the Roofer

Well said Mahlere!

On a similar point to be made, if a union company and a non-union company were bidding on the same project, typically the union company would be priced at a hight level.

But.....Does that mean that that company is doing a disservice to the client?

A requirement to provide proper training and benefits to your employees would be to have sufficient funds to enable a company to provide these in an ongoing basis.

Sometimes, a company just plain old caries more overhead than a shoestring budget operation. The bottom line is that each and every customer, in an indirect way, is paying for the additional costs of operation, whether it be more expensive marketing, better tools and equipment, newer and properly maintained work and estimating vehicles and the overage to cover the occassional customer who does not pay their full amount due.

How much profit would be considered too much?

Bill Gates is worth somewheres around 50-60 billion dollars. Should he just start selling all of his products at a loss because he has enough already?

If someone earned a profit for the company for around 50 thousand dollars and desired to make 100 thousand per year instead, would that be unethical?

There are only 2 legitimate ways to do that. You can either increase the volume of work done or you can increase the amount of net profit derived from around the same amount of work already being done.

If you make $ 1,000.00 per every $ 10,000.00 dollar job and you do 50 of those per year, you would earn $ 50,000.00.

Instead, if you made $ 2,000.00 per every $ 10,000.00 job, then you would only have to do 25 of these jobs to make the same profit.

Which scenario seems to be the more inviting option for a company who wishes to remain in business and provide the previously mentioned benefits and training?

Ed

mahlere

best way to get a good job....don't ask me to cut my throat.

I don't expect the customer to say "hey, here is more for your family", but when it boils down too it, sell strictly on price, and customers who shop strictly on price are actually saying "you don't deserve to live a good life. too bad for your family and employees"

I don't feel the need to sugar coat the statement, since when you get down to the core of it, most all of us are in business to do the best job we can and provide a better life for our families.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, a bunch of us lost sight of that goal. Now we cut prices, cut corners, and spend way too much time away from our families trying to make ends meet...

jamesfl

To floyd;
As a memebr of rsi I must ask this... How long have you been a member of rsi?

Are you a salesman or the owner?

After these answers I have a few more questions.
Thanks , James

To Mahlere:

A)I'm never the lowest bidder, I sell on quality and trust.
B)My view of rsi is based on the fact that a good company with a good reputation does not need outside help to be successfull. If your reputation is that good, then you can and will demand top dollar.

To Floyd as well;
When rsi was first proposed to me by my employer, I was skeptical. Because of this I was provided contacts of "other salesman" who were already using rsi tactics. They talked a great talk, I agreed to sign up and the same salesman was also my instructor. How can you sell roofs and still have time to be a sales instructor? That was a red flag along with many more to come. Thers nothing like putting a potential client in a choke hold to sign a contract. "didn't you say that earlier?" "yes you did, look at this paper you filled out"

So therefore it's my humble opion that rsi first sold to the owners, then by proxy sold the rest of the staff. If you didn't like rsi...goodbye

I will say that todd and aaron (rsi instructors)are top salesman, the best in what they do.
Rsi may make many contractors wealthy, but I would hate to have Rsi, Esi, or the likes in my mother's house.

Maybe I'm not cut out for contracting, but I'm not cut out for scamming either.
Floyd, good luck with rsi, I just can't sleep at night charging double for the same roofing system, just without the smoke and mirrors.
Maybe as a result of this thread you can get a bonus for signing up a new member.

Thanks
James

mahlere

then why do you keep going to price and comparing prices?

a friend of mine just sold his company. The outfit that bought him installs commercial solar systems. The guy who started the company built it from 0 employees to 175 in 3-4 yrs. He put everything in place. Then he hired a guy to be the CEO...many would argue that he had a good company with a good reputation, and was also arguably very successful...however, he realized that he didn't know how to get his company to the next level. So he brought in outside help. Same as many members of ESI/PSI/RSI...they are quite successful, they just don't know how to get to the next level.

jamesfl

mahlere;

I appreciate the debate we're having, it's great!

If at the end of the year you have provided the same exact material, insurance coverage, quality installation, and value to the H.O. as your local competitor would have, (apples to apples) to 100 H.O.'s, but you made an extra one million $'s in the process, Is that fair to all parties involved?

I think it's great to the rsi contractor and rsi. How bout the fact that the H.O. can't afford the next kitchen remodel or addition because the roof was twice what it should be?


As a salesman I always attempt to sell for the top $. I get paid 10% commission on the total dollar amount. I enjoy providing superior service and quality with every sale, and I charge for it. I don't enjoy charging double that just because I can.

Thanks
James

mahlere

James, I agree, this is fun...

Your theory is correct in a vacuum...in the real world, it's impossible....

Did the lower priced crew:
blast a radio all day, every day, and really piss off the HO?

not shower every day, and where the same clothes for the entire week?

yell and cuss and scream at eachother in a language other than english?

install the product correctly? since they had trouble reading the instructions.
(either because they couldn't speak english or they just couldn't read)

show up in a beat up, old truck(s) and drip oil on the HO's driveway?

Use the HO's bathroom and leave a horrific surprise and smell?

Did the higher priced crew:
show up everyday clean and ready to work because they get better pay and benefits?

not make the HO feel uncomfortable or like a prisoner in their own house?
used company funded money to buy the tools that they need (we had a fund for this with a little money from every job added into it)?

Work quickly and efficiently because they weren't worried about being laid off at the end of the job?

know that they were going to get a bonus for coming in under budget and ahead of schedule?

do the job correctly because they knew they would be responsible for it? since the job paid well and had benefits, they wouldn't be so quick to just walk away when asked to fixed a mistake.

All go to manufacturers training on the products that they install? company paid and on the clock?

These are variables that can not be ignored and can not be necessarily compared. Now, if the one company that you worked for that was RSI did not do these things, then he was not following their system.

one of the 1st things that they teach you is that in order to meet your goals, you have to help everyone around you reach theirs...

FLOYD

James, I am one of the founding members and have with rsi since day 1. This group is very close to the late Richard Kallers CCN. I am an owner of a roofing/siding company as well operating a general sales and marketing consulting firm. Rsi sales approach is not one of the better ones. It is designed for a company or contractor with no sales system in place. Many companies are still 15 minute estimators. With that being said your pencil had better be damn sharp in order to get the job. Aaron Santos and Mike Feazel are Kaller students and use a 2 call close. Rsi has a sales system that is proven and it will work to a certain extent if the contractor is new to sales and has nothing else. Most members dont use the sales system.

FLOYD

PS build value and be different than the competion. Raise your prices - LESS WORK MORE MONEY. In this business the homeowner will get what pay for.

mahlere

I honestly feel this way...if I charge the customer $1000 for something, I want them to feel like they got $1500 worth of service.

However, I really do not care if the HO can or can not afford a kitchen remodel or whatever, because of my bill. If they didn't spend $1000/month on car payments...or $4000/month on their mortgage....or $4.50 for a gallon of milk...or $3.00 for a gallon of gas...or $1.60 for a 20 oz bottle of coke...or, the list goes on...they would be able to afford that remodel.

However, if I don't get the money from my customers, I can not afford to remodel my kitchen. I can not afford $4000/mortage...$3/gas....$4.50/milk... etc.

I should also add a little background...we don't do much residential any more...but we used to do between 3000-5000 resi service calls a year. I never really worried about what my customer could or couldn't do after they paid me. I worried more about what I could or couldn't do, based on what we charged them. And no, our charges never flucuated based on the customer. We ran a flat rate system.

But in order to reach my goal of taking care of my family and my employees, I have to help the customer reach their goals for me (whatever they are) I can't rip their lips off, but I can't bend over for them...

MJW

I understand how you guys miss alot of points here. You are not real roofers. No offense, but most of you are clean collar paper boys that sell themselves. I am talking about real world work.

Do you go to the drug store as often as you used to 15 years ago? Most people don't. They go to walmart now. Same thing for less money. It's the American way. No matter which way you slice it, or type it out, people want the best deal they can get.
I wish what you guys were saying is true, but it's not.

mahlere

I'm sorry you feel that way...especially when it relates to to the residential market.

I don't take offense to the "clean collar paper boy" comment, I've busted my ass long and hard to get here. Even today I still do 'real' work every now and again

But when we did a lot of residential work, we would get $3-5k for a 200A service upgrade. We would get the job and then get the neighbors upgrade too. Meanwhile there were and are other contractors in the area that will do an upgrade for $1500.

Did we get every job we looked at? Nope...but I only needed 1 for every 2-3 that the other guy did..

and while I do appreciate your opinion that people go to Wal-Mart instead of the local pharmacy...if that were the case in everything, no one would be driving Mercedes, but rather Yugo would still be in production...No one would go to Morton's for a steak, but rather Ponderosa would be on every corner...Starbucks would be out of business...

You get my point. I believe that what you believe has a lot to do with it. If you believe that the glass is 1/8th empty, then it will be..if you believe that that same glass is 7/8th full, then it will be.

mahlere

MJW- also, don't worry about the real $ numbers being used here...I happen to be in the NY/NJ area...A starter house is $250,000...the main point is that you can be better than the others and get paid better for it...

MJW

I agree with some of what you say. Thanks for not freaking out on me.

Some of us are almost dealing with retail. besides the labor, it really is retail. apples to apples, no one will pay more for anything.

Being where you live, I can see the reasoning for your attitude and thoughts.

mahlere

by retail, do you mean new construction retail? actual retail stores? hard bid?

that is a completely different world, and would receive almost no benefit from anything other than a program that teaches you how to evade taxes and declare bankruptcy...

you are dealing with prints and specs...and yes price is the driving factor on a competitive bid...and until you get large enough to do work beyond the scope of the knuckle draggers, you are kind of screwed.

RSI is for resi/small commercial (mom&pop, one offs, etc) (at least that is what ESI/PSI is about)

In the resi market, price is usually 3 or 4 on the list. And a good salesman will make it 5-6 on the list.

jamesfl

Because I know what the rhino system is and it's no different than what I'm selling, and I see other RSI members bids that are more than double my bid.

My bids have 35% profit in them for the most part.